NBC's Bob Costas Goes On Gun Control Rant About NFL Player's Murder-Suicide - page 2.

Axios

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Quote from: myrkul on December 03, 2012, 08:22:38 PM

Quote from: Axios on December 03, 2012, 08:01:38 PM

Quote from: myrkul on December 03, 2012, 07:56:06 PM

Where did you get this information? He gives information on how to get the data he used on his website: http://www.johnlott.org/

Simply because he can't provide such data. You're welcome to provide such data (copy from his website) and I'll poke huge holes through it.

Actually, I am not welcome to do so.
"When downloading the data from here you promise not to give this data to others. If they want to obtain the data, they may simply come to this web site and download it for themselves."
http://www.johnlott.org/cgi-bin/signup.cgi

Feel free.

You're welcome to replicate his data yourself. That of course shows all fifty states side by side, if it isn't fifty states it was cherry picked (according to you).

I mean why would I trust a guy who created fake profiles to praise his own book on Amazon...

Um.

myrkul

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Quote from: Axios on December 03, 2012, 08:01:38 PM

Quote from: myrkul on December 03, 2012, 07:56:06 PM

Where did you get this information? He gives information on how to get the data he used on his website: http://www.johnlott.org/

Simply because he can't provide such data. You're welcome to provide such data (copy from his website) and I'll poke huge holes through it.

Actually, I am not welcome to do so.
"When downloading the data from here you promise not to give this data to others. If they want to obtain the data, they may simply come to this web site and download it for themselves."
http://www.johnlott.org/cgi-bin/signup.cgi

Feel free.

Axios

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Quote from: myrkul on December 03, 2012, 07:56:06 PM

Where did you get this information? He gives information on how to get the data he used on his website: http://www.johnlott.org/

Simply because he can't provide such data. You're welcome to provide such data (copy from his website) and I'll poke huge holes through it.

myrkul

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Quote from: Axios on December 03, 2012, 07:46:33 PM

It's like magically all states passed shall issue in 1995? He wouldn't be able to provide data for all 50 states, so his data IS cherry picked according to you.

Where did you get this information? He gives information on how to get the data he used on his website: http://www.johnlott.org/

Quote from: Axios on December 03, 2012, 07:46:33 PM

/end of thread.

I keep responding, so obviously it isn't.

Axios

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Quote from: myrkul on December 03, 2012, 07:02:45 PM

But the selection of 6 states out of fifty is cherry picking. So, nice try. Also, just like a reduced increase in spending isn't a "cut," reduced decrease isn't an increase. So, maybe not a very nice try, after all.

Is it, so how is it different from Lott? It's like magically all states passed shall issue in 1995? He wouldn't be able to provide data for all 50 states, so his data IS cherry picked according to you.

/end of thread.

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Quote from: Axios on December 03, 2012, 06:34:36 PM

Quote from: myrkul on December 03, 2012, 05:57:54 PM

Comparing before and after is not "cherry picking."

Violent crime: before and after

Code:

      BEFORE       AFTER
      1995       2011     Reduction
NC   646.4     349.8         46%       Shall issue in 1995
AR   553.2     480.9         13%       Shall issue in 1995
OK   664.1     454.8         33%       Shall issue in 1995
NY   841.9     398.10        53%       May issue, with no issue in NYC
IL   996.1     429.3         57%       No issue
DC   2,661.4   1,202.1       55%       No issue

Source: http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/

The passage of "Shall issue" increased the crime rate compared to no/may issue states.

/end of discussion

But the selection of 6 states out of fifty is cherry picking. So, nice try. Also, just like a reduced increase in spending isn't a "cut," reduced decrease isn't an increase. So, maybe not a very nice try, after all.

Axios

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Quote from: myrkul on December 03, 2012, 05:57:54 PM

Comparing before and after is not "cherry picking."

Violent crime: before and after

Code:

      BEFORE       AFTER
      1995       2011     Reduction
NC   646.4     349.8         46%       Shall issue in 1995
AR   553.2     480.9         13%       Shall issue in 1995
OK   664.1     454.8         33%       Shall issue in 1995
NY   841.9     398.10        53%       May issue, with no issue in NYC
IL   996.1     429.3         57%       No issue
DC   2,661.4   1,202.1       55%       No issue

Source: http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/

The passage of "Shall issue" increased the crime rate compared to no/may issue states.

/end of discussion

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Quote from: nevafuse on December 03, 2012, 02:56:42 PM

I think I'd rather have protection than assume the guy breaking into my house/car is a law abiding citizen.

This.

Quote from: Axios on December 03, 2012, 02:08:30 PM

Quote from: myrkul on December 03, 2012, 01:27:25 PM

Because it is about the people, and not the guns, you need to compare the same places, before and after a change in gun laws, Like John Lott did:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_Guns,_Less_Crime

It's a book for people that want to believe, because cherry picks the data.

Comparing before and after is not "cherry picking."

Axios

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Quote from: Charlie Prime on December 03, 2012, 04:51:23 PM

Quote from: Axios on December 03, 2012, 02:08:30 PM

We can play the statistics game if you want.

Then why on earth would you want to play the game?

Just for the fun of fruitless silliness?

Oh poor little boy has nothing to add... GTFO.

Charlie Prime

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Quote from: Axios on December 03, 2012, 02:08:30 PM

We can play the statistics game if you want.

Then why on earth would you want to play the game?

Just for the fun of fruitless silliness?

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How many guns there are has nothing to do with violence. I live in a house filled with guns and wouldn't hurt a fly. Prisons are filled with people who could never be trusted with a paper clip, as they would surely kill someone with it.

Axios

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Quote from: nevafuse on December 03, 2012, 02:56:42 PM

Isn't there a saying "if you outlaw guns, only the outlaws will have them?" I think I'd rather have protection than assume the guy breaking into my house/car is a law abiding citizen.

Not really. In UK guns crimes are MUCH less than in US, but assault with knives are much more common.

http://fleshisgrass.wordpress.com/2012/07/24/us-and-uk-murder-rate-and-weapon-updated/

In the US – population 311.5 million (1) – there were an estimated 13,756 murders in 2009 (2), a rate of about 5.0 per 100,000 (3). Of these 9,203 were carried out with a firearm.

In the UK – population 56.1 million (4) – there were an estimated 550 murders in 2011-12 (5), a rate of about 1.4 per 100,000. Of these 39 were carried out with a firearm (6).

nevafuse

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Isn't there a saying "if you outlaw guns, only the outlaws will have them?" I think I'd rather have protection than assume the guy breaking into my house/car is a law abiding citizen.

Axios

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Now lets do FL vs NY, FL passed shall issue in 1987

Code:

          1987           2011           Reduction
NY        1,008.1        398.1           61%
FL        1,024.4        515.3           50%
IL        796.2        429.3           47%

Still proves the complete opposite... But added IL and it's a lot more inline with FL than NY.

IL has no CC as far as I am know.

Charlie Prime

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Quote from: Axios on December 03, 2012, 02:08:30 PM

We can play the statistics game if you want.

Then why would you want to play it?

Axios

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Let's take two states: New York, where gun laws didn't change much. May issue with NYC no issue
North Carolina that passed shall issue in 1995.

Violent crime rate in

Code:

      1995       2011     Reduction
NY   841.9     398.10        53%
NC   646.4     349.8         46%

The crime rate in NC was supposed to be reduced at much higher rate.... Looks like shall issue is increasing crime...

Source: http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/nccrimn.htm

Axios

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Quote from: myrkul on December 03, 2012, 01:27:25 PM

Because it is about the people, and not the guns, you need to compare the same places, before and after a change in gun laws, Like John Lott did:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_Guns,_Less_Crime

It's a book for people that want to believe, because cherry picks the data. We can play the statistics game if you want.

For an example NYC last week had no violent crime for a complete day. And the crime rate is down from the previous year.
The crime rate in DC went down too. Wow so gun control actually reduces crime. That was statistics says.

myrkul

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Quote from: Axios on December 03, 2012, 12:40:22 PM

Quote from: Charlie Prime on December 03, 2012, 12:27:56 PM

Incorrect. In the United States research shows the more guns equals less crime, and vice versa.

Nope. Because there is plenty of research to show otherwise.

NYC vs Buffalo, the largest city and the second largest city in NYS.

Because it is about the people, and not the guns, you need to compare the same places, before and after a change in gun laws, Like John Lott did:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_Guns,_Less_Crime

Axios

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Quote from: Charlie Prime on December 03, 2012, 12:27:56 PM

Incorrect. In the United States research shows the more guns equals less crime, and vice versa.

Nope. Because there is plenty of research to show otherwise.

NYC vs Buffalo, the largest city and the second largest city in NYS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate

Let's forget that NYC density is one of the highest in the world.
NYC has draconian gun control, but still allows gun ownership at home.
Buffalo is a may issue city, in practice shall issue.

Buffalo has as twice crime as NYC.

There goes your statistics, the only correlation you may find is poorer areas have more crime. It's about society, not guns.

Charlie Prime

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Quote from: Axios on December 03, 2012, 11:37:55 AM

There is no correlation between crime & gun control.

Incorrect. In the United States research shows the more guns equals less crime, and vice versa.

Topic: NBC's Bob Costas Goes On Gun Control Rant About NFL Player's Murder-Suicide - page 2. (Read 2673 times)