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Topic: Negative Externalities - page 3. (Read 12345 times)

legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1004
April 13, 2011, 10:31:09 AM
#29
You imply that some can rightfully own more water and air than others?

Of course, as with any scarce resource.

Such a property concept has negative externalities because it allows for polluters to own and rightfully pollute the water and air that I drink and breath. With every gulp and breath I would give my consent to some grotesque EULA.

The same thing could theoretically be happening to food and everything else, right now....

OMG, we'll all starve!!!
 Roll Eyes

Competition solves the "issue". What doesn't help are regulations, barriers of entry, disrespect over people's property rights and so on...
legendary
Activity: 1330
Merit: 1000
April 13, 2011, 09:57:10 AM
#28
What about stray dogs?  Are those a negative externality?
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
April 13, 2011, 09:05:26 AM
#27
Not if they're affecting the complainers properties. (well, I mean they don't have the right to, not that they "can't")
If a polluter is polluting your piece of a river, your lake, the water from your well etc, than you have the right to stop him.
You imply that some can rightfully own more water and air than others? Such a property concept has negative externalities because it allows for polluters to own and rightfully pollute the water and air that I drink and breath. With every gulp and breath I would give my consent to some grotesque EULA.

Scarce things are scarce, yo.

Ownership just means you can lay a claim to keep other people from using said resource if you rightfully acquired it (<---debate for another time in there).  If someone comes along and dirties it up or otherwise harms this resource, you have recourse.  It's just a combination of this notion of 'public property' and our inefficient court systems that favor (due to their expensive nature and laws written by lobbyists rather than dictated by natural rights) large corporations that allow 'acceptable levels' of pollution to happen today.

Without both of those in place, it would become trivial to seek redress vs. any damage to your property by another party, and this includes pollution.  Without limited liability laws, the stockholders and management of any company that decided to risk polluting others' property would be at personal risk of losing their assets if they wronged others.

Incentives matter.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
April 13, 2011, 08:58:05 AM
#26
If there is no "public" ownership, it becomes a case of damages, not negative externalities.  If someone dumps a pile of manure in my yard, that's not an externality, it's damaging my property and I will sue him or at least make him clean it up.
My last post in this thread still applies. If I happen not to own my yard, or my home for that matter, the landlord can do whatever he pleases.

If I happen to not own Wal-Mart, Wal-Mart can just do whatever they please, and they may decide not to stock things I want to buy.  I'll have no choice but to just buy things I hate then.
sr. member
Activity: 322
Merit: 250
April 13, 2011, 08:38:19 AM
#25
If there is no "public" ownership, it becomes a case of damages, not negative externalities.  If someone dumps a pile of manure in my yard, that's not an externality, it's damaging my property and I will sue him or at least make him clean it up.
My last post in this thread still applies. If I happen not to own my yard, or my home for that matter, the landlord can do whatever he pleases.
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 101
April 13, 2011, 08:20:19 AM
#24
Cannot a polluter rightfully ignore the complaints of the dysenteric and asthmatic on the premise that they consented to drink and breath?

Not if they're affecting the complainers properties. (well, I mean they don't have the right to, not that they "can't")
If a polluter is polluting your piece of a river, your lake, the water from your well etc, than you have the right to stop him.

If there is no "public" ownership, it becomes a case of damages, not negative externalities.  If someone dumps a pile of manure in my yard, that's not an externality, it's damaging my property and I will sue him or at least make him clean it up.
sr. member
Activity: 322
Merit: 250
April 13, 2011, 08:16:37 AM
#23
Not if they're affecting the complainers properties. (well, I mean they don't have the right to, not that they "can't")
If a polluter is polluting your piece of a river, your lake, the water from your well etc, than you have the right to stop him.
You imply that some can rightfully own more water and air than others? Such a property concept has negative externalities because it allows for polluters to own and rightfully pollute the water and air that I drink and breath. With every gulp and breath I would give my consent to some grotesque EULA.
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1004
April 13, 2011, 02:57:02 AM
#22
Cannot a polluter rightfully ignore the complaints of the dysenteric and asthmatic on the premise that they consented to drink and breath?

Not if they're affecting the complainers properties. (well, I mean they don't have the right to, not that they "can't")
If a polluter is polluting your piece of a river, your lake, the water from your well etc, than you have the right to stop him.
donator
Activity: 826
Merit: 1060
April 12, 2011, 01:46:11 PM
#21
So, please, help add to the list.
Infectious diseases.

Diseases are a difficult class of externality, because the size of the effect is unknown to the infected person. If the person diagnosed with bird flu goes to the coffee shop, they may infect zero, one, or more people. Or, the diagnosis may be incorrect, and they may have something similar that's harmless or is ten times more deadly.
sr. member
Activity: 322
Merit: 250
April 12, 2011, 01:01:28 PM
#20
i do not consent to anyone quoting this post


Too bad!
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 11
April 12, 2011, 12:54:03 PM
#19
i do not consent to anyone quoting this post
sr. member
Activity: 322
Merit: 250
April 12, 2011, 12:52:08 PM
#18
If they consent to drink and breathe pollution you mean?
I suppose that adding that qualifier brings the total to three choices: stop drinking and breathing, find unpolluted water and air to drink and breath, or drink and breath pollution. Of course, the second premise depends on the availability of clean water and air. If clean water and air is unavailable, then one cannot consent to drinking and breathing without also consenting to drinking and breathing pollution.
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 101
April 12, 2011, 12:37:46 PM
#17
Looking at ugly houses

Please justify this.  Who is forcing you to look at ugly houses?  Do you have a right to be surrounded by rainbows as far as the eye can see?

If someone builds an ugly house next to mine, I had a nice view of a mountain before, and now I don't.  No one said anything about having a right to a good view.  It is a cost imposed on me, nonetheless.

If someone farts near me, that's a negative externality too.

Quote from: Atlas
Centralized fiat currencies.

Please justify this.  How are you forced to use fiat currency?
When the government forces you to pay him in it.  Still, not sure it's a negative externality.
legendary
Activity: 1330
Merit: 1000
April 12, 2011, 12:29:57 PM
#16
I mean, we can choose not to drink, breath, or drive. Cannot a polluter rightfully ignore the complaints of the dysenteric and asthmatic on the premise that they consented to drink and breath?

If they consent to drink and breathe pollution you mean?
sr. member
Activity: 322
Merit: 250
April 12, 2011, 11:54:03 AM
#15
You're degrading this argument down to the point that we consent to live, that living is a negotiable choice. Which can be a fair argument if you advocate that if you are coerced into a system, you still have freedom because you can kill yourself.
I'm not degrading anything. My point is that consent isn't necessarily the best factor, or even a good factor, by which to judge an outcome.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 252
April 12, 2011, 11:30:42 AM
#14
Laws are negative externalities, or at least some laws. The politicians/lobbyists that draft/pass laws don't pay the full cost of their decisions.
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
April 12, 2011, 11:29:33 AM
#13
Trade
Well, I'll agree that sometimes consensual trade is harmful, as in the case of blackmail and extortion, but these modes depend on threats of force. Regardless, I take it that you mean that negative externalities do not exist in the presence of consent. That brings us to how we value consent though. I mean, we can choose not to drink, breath, or drive. Cannot a polluter rightfully ignore the complaints of the dysenteric and asthmatic on the premise that they consented to drink and breath? If they try to shut him down, aren't they just Indian givers, after a fashion?
You're degrading this argument down to the point that we consent to live, that living is a negotiable choice. Which can be a fair argument if you advocate that if you are coerced into a system, you still have freedom because you can kill yourself.
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
April 12, 2011, 11:27:30 AM
#12
The state restricts the generation and use of private tangible currencies.
sr. member
Activity: 322
Merit: 250
April 12, 2011, 11:27:01 AM
#11
Trade
Well, I'll agree that sometimes consensual trade is harmful, as in the case of blackmail and extortion, but these modes depend on threats of force. Regardless, I take it that you mean that negative externalities do not exist in the presence of consent. That brings us to how we value consent though. I mean, we can choose not to drink, breath, or drive. Cannot a polluter rightfully ignore the complaints of the dysenteric and asthmatic on the premise that they consented to drink and breath? If they try to shut him down, aren't they just Indian givers, after a fashion?

S&M  Cheesy
Perhaps, although good practitioners use safe-words with no threat of force against their use.
legendary
Activity: 1330
Merit: 1000
April 12, 2011, 11:23:17 AM
#10
Well, we essentially are. Have you every tried to live without using fiat currency?

I'm not saying you aren't.  Just tell me how exactly.
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