[NEM] NEM -New Economy Movement - No Envy Movement - Updates+Discussion thread - page 161.

gimre

legendary

Activity: 866

Merit: 1002

Quote from: Wesiematic on April 27, 2014, 03:59:23 AM

I'm looking forward for testing an alpha version
and if i'm able to do to setup a NEM-Node

thx for the amazing project

Let me spread some rumors: in alpha you actually will HAVE to run the node. (but phear not, it should take single click to start both NIS and NCC)

xtester

hero member

Activity: 840

Merit: 500

Risk taker & Black Swan farmer.

Quote from: utopianfuture on April 27, 2014, 08:08:58 AM

Quote from: xtester on April 27, 2014, 05:16:27 AM

Quote from: utopianfuture on April 26, 2014, 10:43:06 PM

Quote from: xtester on April 26, 2014, 04:14:58 PM

Quote from: TauMuon on April 26, 2014, 02:25:20 PM

I think a fair starting price for each stake is between 0.2-0.5 BTC. The stakes for the waiting list guys will be 0.1 BTC, so a 0.2 BTC starting price seems fair to me.

But fairness doesn't seem to have a clear meaning in this situation.

Fairness relative to what, to buyers or to the devs and community who put a lot of hard work into this?

The call to participation was 1st phase to get in, waiting list is 2nd phase and auction is whole different matter.

With the auction we should aim to prepare for the market and set a real price for the stakes. The call for participation and auction should not be put together and compared because they are different things with different purpose.

Anyway, I would be very interested to hear Utopians view on this matter.

One question. If you auction 2 identical Macbook on Ebay at the same time, which one will yield higher price ? the one set up with a no reserve auction or the one set up with a 1000$ reserved auction ?

Interesting question. I think the answer here may depend a lot on the product at hand. If it is a Macbook, given the brand Apple has build, the product may indeed sell even better without a starting price. But that is not because the starting price is the most important factor, but rather, as I said, due to the great brand Apple has built and the strong demand that exists for their products. Indeed, I think the absence of a starting price when a great brand and enough demand exist, would gather a lot more people around an auction simply because the auction will feed their impression that they could buy a high value product for a cheap price, even though in the end they may pay more than they would have if the price was fixed.

So the natural question that arises now is do we have a strong enough brand to benefit from an absence of price or should we start with at least half the price we would expect to be minimum, as a safety precaution?

I was also thinking about Nassim Taleb's(some of you may be familiar to his ideas) antifragility theory and I think our aim should be to create an antifragile or at least resilient/robust market. Meaning that we should not fear the dumpers, but take them into account and even encourage(incentivize) them to get it over with as soon as possible. In fact, there may be some people who have received a stake but don't intend to help or keep it and so through this natural selection process the real supporters hold and contribute to the value of the movement while the dumpers exit and help us grow even faster by decreasing the risk to big dumping happening further down the road.

I agree. Our initial thought is to offer the first auction on the Alpha release to avoid scam accusation and we will take some times to build the brand up to that point. The likely method of auction is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiunit_auction. We will write a more detail guidelines at least one week before the auction but that's something everyone can study first if they are interested in the auction. Uniform auction have been used for U.S Treasury auctions. You can read about the theories and empirical studies of this type of auction here http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/fin-mkts/Documents/final.pdf and here http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/fin-mkts/Documents/upas2.pdf

Utopianfuture, are you familiar with the work of Taleb? (The Black Swan and Antifragile)

If you are interested in economics I assume you have heard of him. If not, I urge you, this is a person you cannot afford not to read. He is simply too good to be ignored if you are interested in science, philosophy, economics, etc.

If you read him, just let me know what you think.

shaman2000

full member

Activity: 133

Merit: 100

Quote from: j23a on April 27, 2014, 01:52:11 PM

Quote from: shaman2000 on April 27, 2014, 08:10:08 AM

just simple question- when will be any Alfa or anything for us- after week, month or year???
because after many months we have just bla,bla,bla...and auction instead of just give people from waiting list stakes...
IT'S REALLY VERY PITY!!!

The way you go it's just been bla, bla, bla, as if the devs can just snap their fingers and create a finish product. The people involved should not worry themselves with people who can't wait for things, who can't understand that things just don't happen willy nilly, which is a term I've never used, and demand instant satisfaction. Sorry for the bluntness, but if someone's way of thinking is flawed, then bluntness is best for them. Constructive criticism.

I've just asked when are we going to have alfa, guys, it was just simple question-why you thinking that this is way to do the flaw???
Relax man! we are together in one board! words from my side about bla,bla bla as well was ''Constructive criticism'' -wasn't it???
and how I can help now to the our community now if I'm not a programmer? I will help with my pleasure!!!!
cheers

Fatih87SK

hero member

Activity: 616

Merit: 500

A reminder for you all.

Change your password into a strong one.

Schnitz

newbie

Activity: 15

Merit: 0

Quote from: j23a on April 27, 2014, 01:52:11 PM

Quote from: shaman2000 on April 27, 2014, 08:10:08 AM

just simple question- when will be any Alfa or anything for us- after week, month or year???
because after many months we have just bla,bla,bla...and auction instead of just give people from waiting list stakes...
IT'S REALLY VERY PITY!!!

The way you go it's just been bla, bla, bla, as if the devs can just snap their fingers and create a finish product. The people involved should not worry themselves with people who can't wait for things, who can't understand that things just don't happen nilly willy, which is a term I've never used, and demand instant satisfaction. Sorry for the bluntness, but if someone's way of thinking is flawed, then bluntness is best for them. Constructive criticism.

That´s right. Just wait and see.

mr smith

full member

Activity: 182

Merit: 100

Quote from: Chris001 on April 27, 2014, 12:36:06 PM

Quote from: patmast3r on April 27, 2014, 12:30:40 PM

Quote from: Chris001 on April 27, 2014, 12:28:05 PM

UP, Pat, rest of Devs, and community,

Can we start an official Buy/Sell thread for the dumpers right now?

Let's get those that just want to dump their stake out of the way right now.

Thoughts??

Interesting idea I'm just pretty sure it wouldn't work. Maybe you can weed out a few but there are smarter dumpsters that dump periodically to get the most out of it.
Still interested to see what the rest thinks

We could give that a try.

Well, we could at least get the stakeholders that care the least out of the movement now.

This is something i mentioned some time ago. It could be a little to late for that now.
How do you put a price on a stake, someone said he wanted to buy all stakes for 1BTC
if anyone was selling. Maybe an ego thing who knows !
My back pockets not that deep on multiples. I do think stakeholders that want to sell be given that outlet within the NEM community first. Perhaps they could be allowed to auction stakes by forward request so the market dictates the price.

Another feeler - If a bunch of Nemsters with a few spare BTC clubbed together we could buy some stakes for a non profit use.

Down the line in a few months, when someone really liked NEM but did not have funds and say had marketing skills. We could give them an opportunity for active participation = you can buy a full stake at last donation price 0.75BTC or what we paid when recipient has shown input decided by the group.

How it would work, who would be chosen and recipients input could be thought out. I understand bounties and give a ways by the dev's but this maybe doable by the community, any left over refund stakes would help out.
Imagine 10,20 such people pushing NEM, it would also have a marketing +

Any thoughts, it's getting dark am i barking mad !

j23a

full member

Activity: 210

Merit: 100

Quote from: shaman2000 on April 27, 2014, 08:10:08 AM

just simple question- when will be any Alfa or anything for us- after week, month or year???
because after many months we have just bla,bla,bla...and auction instead of just give people from waiting list stakes...
IT'S REALLY VERY PITY!!!

The way you go it's just been bla, bla, bla, as if the devs can just snap their fingers and create a finish product. The people involved should not worry themselves with people who can't wait for things, who can't understand that things just don't happen willy nilly, which is a term I've never used, and demand instant satisfaction. Sorry for the bluntness, but if someone's way of thinking is flawed, then bluntness is best for them. Constructive criticism.

upekha

full member

Activity: 183

Merit: 100

TDTPJR-P5SGXY-UU2OS6-BPTUV4-NJYQFT-6CWYZP-IA2W

Quote from: utopianfuture on April 27, 2014, 08:16:11 AM

Quote from: shaman2000 on April 27, 2014, 08:10:08 AM

just simple question- when will be any Alfa or anything for us- after week, month or year???
because after many months we have just bla,bla,bla...and auction instead of just give people from waiting list stakes...
IT'S REALLY VERY PITY!!!

It is coming soon (weeks not months or years). There is a choice that does not involve complaining for anyone who loses patience as well.

better take years, and make NEM a succes, than hurrying!!

shaman2000

full member

Activity: 133

Merit: 100

Quote from: utopianfuture on April 27, 2014, 08:16:11 AM

Quote from: shaman2000 on April 27, 2014, 08:10:08 AM

just simple question- when will be any Alfa or anything for us- after week, month or year???
because after many months we have just bla,bla,bla...and auction instead of just give people from waiting list stakes...
IT'S REALLY VERY PITY!!!

It is coming soon (weeks not months or years). There is a choice that does not involve complaining for anyone who loses patience as well.

Thank You very much for Your answer Dear UP!
Just really pity that EXO and NXTL are near on the market...
Cheers.

Chris001

sr. member

Activity: 448

Merit: 250

electroneum.com

Quote from: patmast3r on April 27, 2014, 12:30:40 PM

Quote from: Chris001 on April 27, 2014, 12:28:05 PM

UP, Pat, rest of Devs, and community,

Can we start an official Buy/Sell thread for the dumpers right now?

Let's get those that just want to dump their stake out of the way right now.

Thoughts??

Interesting idea I'm just pretty sure it wouldn't work. Maybe you can weed out a few but there are smarter dumpsters that dump periodically to get the most out of it.
Still interested to see what the rest thinks

We could give that a try.

Well, we could at least get the stakeholders that care the least out of the movement now.

patmast3r

hero member

Activity: 980

Merit: 1001

Quote from: Chris001 on April 27, 2014, 12:28:05 PM

UP, Pat, rest of Devs, and community,

Can we start an official Buy/Sell thread for the dumpers right now?

Let's get those that just want to dump their stake out of the way right now.

Thoughts??

Interesting idea I'm just pretty sure it wouldn't work. Maybe you can weed out a few but there are smarter dumpsters that dump periodically to get the most out of it.
Still interested to see what the rest thinks

We could give that a try.

Chris001

sr. member

Activity: 448

Merit: 250

electroneum.com

UP, Pat, rest of Devs, and community,

Can we start an official Buy/Sell thread for the dumpers right now?

Let's get those that just want to dump their stake out of the way right now.

Thoughts??

vytasz7

hero member

Activity: 561

Merit: 500

As i understand in 1 auction you can bid for 1 stake ,but what about the other auctions if you already bought a stake ,will it be possible to participate in them as well ?

Zimmermann

newbie

Activity: 50

Merit: 0

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: ShawnLeary on April 27, 2014, 10:50:28 AM

Quote from: utopianfuture on April 27, 2014, 08:08:58 AM

I agree. Our initial thought is to offer the first auction on the Alpha release to avoid scam accusation and we will take some times to build the brand up to that point. The likely method of auction is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiunit_auction. We will write a more detail guidelines at least one week before the auction but that's something everyone can study first if they are interested in the auction. Uniform auction have been used for U.S Treasury auctions. You can read about the theories and empirical studies of this type of auction here http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/fin-mkts/Documents/final.pdf and here http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/fin-mkts/Documents/upas2.pdf

Please consider saving one final stake to be auction the day before final release, would help set market price and build momentum. One last lucky bastard gets in

good idea!!!! have 2 on sale day before and 1 single stake where the auction ends 1 hour before launch!

+100000 !!!

ShawnLeary

hero member

Activity: 518

Merit: 504

Quote from: utopianfuture on April 27, 2014, 08:08:58 AM

I agree. Our initial thought is to offer the first auction on the Alpha release to avoid scam accusation and we will take some times to build the brand up to that point. The likely method of auction is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiunit_auction. We will write a more detail guidelines at least one week before the auction but that's something everyone can study first if they are interested in the auction. Uniform auction have been used for U.S Treasury auctions. You can read about the theories and empirical studies of this type of auction here http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/fin-mkts/Documents/final.pdf and here http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/fin-mkts/Documents/upas2.pdf

Please consider saving one final stake to be auction the day before final release, would help set market price and build momentum. One last lucky bastard gets in

Vladimircook

newbie

Activity: 52

Merit: 0

Quote from: ?? on ??

eXo is coming. NXTL is as well. They are not clones. Could be tough competitors. Step up NEM dev. I trust in you.

I don't think you can compare NEM with a coin like NXTL.

Have you ever realized the distribution method of NXTL?

Chris001

sr. member

Activity: 448

Merit: 250

electroneum.com

When we set the auction with no reserve this doesn't mean the stakes will sell that low.

It also doesn't mean that people think we value NEM at zero lol.

It is quite the opposite. By setting a reserve we are putting a price on it, unless we make the reserve ridiculously high, this can hurt the value.

By placing no reserve, we are not giving the bidders a price that we think it is worth. This will give us the most potential to receive the highest bid. No one will think we think the value is zero. Bidders see that we have TRUE confidence in our product.

Think if it this way. If we set it at zero, no reserve, what are the chances of the sale finalizing at zero?

NONE

We ourselves are going to be watching the auction like hawks. If the bid was at .01 BTC a stake, I would buy them all by myself, and so would you!

So this is how the concept of the auction works.

.02 BTC, same thing would happen right, we would all buy them all.

At some point this would end, and a price would be established.

So those of you that think by setting the reserve at zero, would cause it to sell low, you have nothing to worry about because it is impossible for this to happen.

No reserve is BY FAR the best way to go.

Also, we should do it in chunks of 100,000. It will get us more participants. And I got a feeling it would cause the value rise a little more that way. Just a gut feeling there tho. lol

Vladimircook

newbie

Activity: 52

Merit: 0

Quote from: bitsire on April 27, 2014, 10:06:20 AM

Quote from: utopianfuture on April 27, 2014, 08:14:08 AM

Quote from: dasource on April 27, 2014, 08:06:39 AM

Quote from: utopianfuture on April 26, 2014, 10:43:06 PM

One question. If you auction 2 identical Macbook on Ebay at the same time, which one will yield higher price ? the one set up with a no reserve auction or the one set up with a 1000$ reserved auction ?

As odd as it sounds, no reserve always seem to yield higher price.

That's what I observe too. The likely reason is that no reserved auction has a bigger pool of buyers and therefore more demand. Some does not enter reserved auction due to the uncertainty of wasting time even when winning a bid. There is also a certain psychological aspect that makes certain bidders want to stay away from no reserve auction.

I agree. No starting price for the NEM auction is the way to go. Let the market decide if a stake goes for 0.1 BTC or 10 BTCs!!

The market decides also if a stake will have already a certain price at the auction's start.
Better we'd set up a minimum rate for each stake and offer smaller stake units like 100000 or 10000, too.

bitsire

full member

Activity: 223

Merit: 100

Quote from: utopianfuture on April 27, 2014, 08:14:08 AM

Quote from: dasource on April 27, 2014, 08:06:39 AM

Quote from: utopianfuture on April 26, 2014, 10:43:06 PM

One question. If you auction 2 identical Macbook on Ebay at the same time, which one will yield higher price ? the one set up with a no reserve auction or the one set up with a 1000$ reserved auction ?

As odd as it sounds, no reserve always seem to yield higher price.

That's what I observe too. The likely reason is that no reserved auction has a bigger pool of buyers and therefore more demand. Some does not enter reserved auction due to the uncertainty of wasting time even when winning a bid. There is also a certain psychological aspect that makes certain bidders want to stay away from no reserve auction.

I agree. No starting price for the NEM auction is the way to go. Let the market decide if a stake goes for 0.1 BTC or 10 BTCs!!

jxmhqjg

full member

Activity: 175

Merit: 100

Quote from: utopianfuture on April 27, 2014, 08:16:11 AM

Quote from: shaman2000 on April 27, 2014, 08:10:08 AM

just simple question- when will be any Alfa or anything for us- after week, month or year???
because after many months we have just bla,bla,bla...and auction instead of just give people from waiting list stakes...
IT'S REALLY VERY PITY!!!

It is coming soon (weeks not months or years). There is a choice that does not involve complaining for anyone who loses patience as well.

如果东西好，再等等也没有关系，慢工出细活。 Thank the NEM team for their hard work！

Topic: [NEM] NEM -New Economy Movement - No Envy Movement - Updates+Discussion thread - page 161. (Read 661498 times)