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Topic: NEM (XEM) Official Thread - 100% New Code - Easy To Use APIs - page 224. (Read 2984910 times)

member
Activity: 100
Merit: 10
any attempt at cashing out these coins will immediately reveal who it was

Nope. That's only true if every single exchange, ICO, etc that supports NEM is MANUALLY tracking the stolen XEM and manually blacklisting in real time which is simply not going to happen. Even if so, many exchanges don't require verification so it wouldn't reveal who attempted to cash out.

Even with the tagging system, chances are there will be some exchanges that won't utilize it.

Actually according to jeff in his interview , its a very easy process to see if any tagged coins enter their system. Its just a matter of adding some code to their api and its all done automatically.
I don't see why all exchanges wouldn't do it as they are opening up themselves to money laundering charges if they start selling stolen coins.

Hard fork seems to be a no no also which is good news.

Best bet for hacker is to seek a bounty and return the funds

NEM is in danger of falling off the map here. Team needs to do something big. Is catapult ever happening? Wasn’t it supposed to be last August?
It's nothing to do with the price of the NEM, but people will become distrustful of the exchange because people think the exchange can not protect their assets and will only make a short redemption
legendary
Activity: 2590
Merit: 3015
Welt Am Draht
Can you explain to me how they are planning to reimburse 300-400 million USD worth to their customers?

Or was a large part in hands of themselves or several large holders that they made private arrangements with?

Only 10% of the amount stolen was customer funds. The rest were theirs. Still a lot of money but any successful exchange should be making far more than $50 million per year in profit.
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1007
I’d like to see gentlemand’s response to this.

I've had that vituperative psycho on ignore since before you were an itch in your father's testes. It may have valid points. Good luck to it.

http://corporate.coincheck.com/2018/01/28/30.html

All of Coincheck's customers will be refunded in the JPY value of their XEM.

Can you explain to me how they are planning to reimburse 300-400 million USD worth to their customers?

Or was a large part in hands of themselves or several large holders that they made private arrangements with?
legendary
Activity: 2590
Merit: 3015
Welt Am Draht
I’d like to see gentlemand’s response to this.

I've had that vituperative psycho on ignore since before you were an itch in your father's testes. It may have valid points. Good luck to it.

http://corporate.coincheck.com/2018/01/28/30.html

All of Coincheck's customers will be refunded in the JPY value of their XEM.
hero member
Activity: 980
Merit: 1001
any attempt at cashing out these coins will immediately reveal who it was

Nope. That's only true if every single exchange, ICO, etc that supports NEM is MANUALLY tracking the stolen XEM and manually blacklisting in real time which is simply not going to happen. Even if so, many exchanges don't require verification so it wouldn't reveal who attempted to cash out.

Even with the tagging system, chances are there will be some exchanges that won't utilize it.

Actually according to jeff in his interview , its a very easy process to see if any tagged coins enter their system. Its just a matter of adding some code to their api and its all done automatically.
I don't see why all exchanges wouldn't do it as they are opening up themselves to money laundering charges if they start selling stolen coins.

Hard fork seems to be a no no also which is good news.

Best bet for hacker is to seek a bounty and return the funds

NEM is in danger of falling off the map here. Team needs to do something big. Is catapult ever happening? Wasn’t it supposed to be last August?

And why is it in danger all of a sudden ?
It was supposed to happen for mijin, end of last year and it did. Public chain get's it at some point this year.

I found this to be a surprisingly pleasant coverage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoEjlVHDVVk
newbie
Activity: 51
Merit: 0
To the people worried about fungibility, they need to remember that this blacklist via tagging is not centrally enforceable. It is an opt-in tool that exchanges can use to avoid stolen XEM at THEIR discretion.

If coins may be blacklisted, they are not fungible.   It has nothing to do with centralization, opt-in, or discretion.

There mere fact it is possible for anyone to blacklist coins proves the coins are not fungible.

Truly fungible coins cannot be blacklisted.  Look into the Monero literature for more details.

The ignorance displayed in your post is beyond believe. Let me try to clear this up for anyone that is about to believe this.

What they are doing is not actually blacklisting funds. They are writing a service that will automatically send a mosaic, which is what nem's on_chain assets are called, to every account that receives funds from the hacker. All that does is mark the account for other people so THEY can decide whether or not to accept those funds. It's basically like me saying I won't accept iCREBEAKERSs shitty monero because he's spreading FUD. That is my right and it has nothing to do with central authority.
All they are doing is helping others identify hacked funds, that's it. It is up to everyone to decide whether or not to accept them.
They are also not using any central authority to issue said mosaics. Anyone could write a similar service and do the exact same thing and it would again, be up to everyone to accept or not accept those funds.

So go spread your FUD somewhere else.

The guy sounds like a toolbag with an axe to grind. Maybe he was a sockpuppet holder and got outed, and he's super salty about it. Either that or he's just a mega monero fanboi and has a stop liking what i don't like attitude. Either way he comes across as a bitter idiot. I doubt anyone takes what he's saying seriously.
full member
Activity: 230
Merit: 100
any attempt at cashing out these coins will immediately reveal who it was

Nope. That's only true if every single exchange, ICO, etc that supports NEM is MANUALLY tracking the stolen XEM and manually blacklisting in real time which is simply not going to happen. Even if so, many exchanges don't require verification so it wouldn't reveal who attempted to cash out.

Even with the tagging system, chances are there will be some exchanges that won't utilize it.

Actually according to jeff in his interview , its a very easy process to see if any tagged coins enter their system. Its just a matter of adding some code to their api and its all done automatically.
I don't see why all exchanges wouldn't do it as they are opening up themselves to money laundering charges if they start selling stolen coins.

Hard fork seems to be a no no also which is good news.

Best bet for hacker is to seek a bounty and return the funds

NEM is in danger of falling off the map here. Team needs to do something big. Is catapult ever happening? Wasn’t it supposed to be last August?
legendary
Activity: 1279
Merit: 1018
any attempt at cashing out these coins will immediately reveal who it was

Nope. That's only true if every single exchange, ICO, etc that supports NEM is MANUALLY tracking the stolen XEM and manually blacklisting in real time which is simply not going to happen. Even if so, many exchanges don't require verification so it wouldn't reveal who attempted to cash out.

Even with the tagging system, chances are there will be some exchanges that won't utilize it.

Actually according to jeff in his interview , its a very easy process to see if any tagged coins enter their system. Its just a matter of adding some code to their api and its all done automatically.
I don't see why all exchanges wouldn't do it as they are opening up themselves to money laundering charges if they start selling stolen coins.

Hard fork seems to be a no no also which is good news.

Best bet for hacker is to seek a bounty and return the funds
hero member
Activity: 1050
Merit: 506
To the people worried about fungibility, they need to remember that this blacklist via tagging is not centrally enforceable. It is an opt-in tool that exchanges can use to avoid stolen XEM at THEIR discretion.

If coins may be blacklisted, they are not fungible.   It has nothing to do with centralization, opt-in, or discretion.

There mere fact it is possible for anyone to blacklist coins proves the coins are not fungible.

Truly fungible coins cannot be blacklisted.  Look into the Monero literature for more details.

The ignorance displayed in your post is beyond believe. Let me try to clear this up for anyone that is about to believe this.

What they are doing is not actually blacklisting funds. They are writing a service that will automatically send a mosaic, which is what nem's on_chain assets are called, to every account that receives funds from the hacker. All that does is mark the account for other people so THEY can decide whether or not to accept those funds. It's basically like me saying I won't accept iCREBEAKERSs shitty monero because he's spreading FUD. That is my right and it has nothing to do with central authority.
All they are doing is helping others identify hacked funds, that's it. It is up to everyone to decide whether or not to accept them.
They are also not using any central authority to issue said mosaics. Anyone could write a similar service and do the exact same thing and it would again, be up to everyone to accept or not accept those funds.

So go spread your FUD somewhere else.

thanks for your statement. Well appreciated
hero member
Activity: 1666
Merit: 565
really sad to read about that hacking and loss Sad

and sadder it to read users who blame xem and even talk about an inside job. Hope that this great community and project will recover soon!
hero member
Activity: 980
Merit: 1001
To the people worried about fungibility, they need to remember that this blacklist via tagging is not centrally enforceable. It is an opt-in tool that exchanges can use to avoid stolen XEM at THEIR discretion.

If coins may be blacklisted, they are not fungible.   It has nothing to do with centralization, opt-in, or discretion.

There mere fact it is possible for anyone to blacklist coins proves the coins are not fungible.

Truly fungible coins cannot be blacklisted.  Look into the Monero literature for more details.

The ignorance displayed in your post is beyond believe. Let me try to clear this up for anyone that is about to believe this.

What they are doing is not actually blacklisting funds. They are writing a service that will automatically send a mosaic, which is what nem's on_chain assets are called, to every account that receives funds from the hacker. All that does is mark the account for other people so THEY can decide whether or not to accept those funds. It's basically like me saying I won't accept iCREBEAKERSs shitty monero because he's spreading FUD. That is my right and it has nothing to do with central authority.
All they are doing is helping others identify hacked funds, that's it. It is up to everyone to decide whether or not to accept them.
They are also not using any central authority to issue said mosaics. Anyone could write a similar service and do the exact same thing and it would again, be up to everyone to accept or not accept those funds.

So go spread your FUD somewhere else.
member
Activity: 308
Merit: 13
ZetoChain - ACCELERATING BLOCKCHAIN FOR THE SUPPLY
Its totally coinchecks fault, and cointelegraph incorrectly reported that NEM has no multisig in the news article, hence the hack happened.

The truth is that Coincheck were the ones lazy and had no multisig contract.

foolsih for an exchange not to use this.
Anyway, NEM technology has proven itself as secure.

at least there is the possibility that they lost a huge amount of their own stash ( 300m they bought 2016)
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
To the people worried about fungibility, they need to remember that this blacklist via tagging is not centrally enforceable. It is an opt-in tool that exchanges can use to avoid stolen XEM at THEIR discretion.

If coins may be blacklisted, they are not fungible.   It has nothing to do with centralization, opt-in, or discretion.

There mere fact it is possible for anyone to blacklist coins proves the coins are not fungible.

Truly fungible coins cannot be blacklisted.  Look into the Monero literature for more details.
member
Activity: 308
Merit: 13
ZetoChain - ACCELERATING BLOCKCHAIN FOR THE SUPPLY
We might never know exactly what did lead to the loss of the coins from CC.

I know fungibility is one of the key facts in Crypto. But what are the actions right now ?

Sure the foundation could just do nothing and let the markets collapse when the hacker is selling, but how would that help anyone involved.

In a true decentralized way, there is no possibilty to just hardfork and move on like ETH did.

How I get it is, that the devs try to flag the accounts and make it at least harder to sell the stolen coins. They can just help sending those mosaics, but anyone could develop such a tool and send mosaics. Whether it helps the exchanges in the longrun is not in the hands of the foundation. But that´s a good thing. They can´t "solve" this issue, but doing their best.

I would love to hear your solution/way to do it better

The best (re)action "right now" is doing nothing.

Don't try to "help."  That is counterproductive.

Those who formerly had NEM on a vulnerable exchange deserve to lose their coins.  They are by definition weak hands for letting someone take their coins.

Helping them with convoluted, unworkable tainting nonsense only encourages them to make the same mistake again.

They need tough love so they learn a lesson, not indulgence so they learn to depend on bailouts.

The best thing is for the stolen coins to be redistributed into stronger hands.  The attacker has already taken the first step by helping himself to the weaklings' coins.

The next step is to sell them off and hope NEM is antifragile enough to survive and emerge stronger from the harsh lessons in security and fungibility.

The hacker or whatever must be rewarded for finding the vulnerability, or it will discourage others from pen-testing.  The mechanism for that to happen is for those with empty bags to pay the hacker to refill them.  The re-buyers will thus have more skin in the game and not be so greedy and careless in the future.  That goes for the exchange as well as its customers.

NEM devs and community must also work on making their coin fungible and their network permissionless and decentralized.

But they don't want to do that.  Every architectural and organizational governance design decision shows NEM is fully intended to be the vanity project of one Satoshi-wannabe guy.

If Bitcoin can recover from dozens of MtGoxes and be stronger than ever WTF is NEM's excuse for treating its users like little babies who must be mollycoddled and protected from the consequences of their poor decisions?

Look to Bitcoin's history for an example of leaderless governance and antifragility to emulate.  Look to Monero for an example of 100% fungible (IE cannot be tainted) coins moving through a permissionless (IE can't be evil) network.

First of all. I like your point.

I lost no coins at the exchange and even if I had, i would agree to see this as a necessary lesson.

There is just a huge difference right now regarding people involved in crypto.

I think most people letting their coins sit on an exchange aren´t really interested to actually use the coin or the vision of the project. The mentality is more and more shifting to the "get quick rich scheme".

So I do agree that a kind of survival of the fittest in darwins vision wouldn´t harm crypto. I have no doubt that even if the hacker would drop all the stolen coins, NEM would recover and a really big part would be shifted to stronger hands.

But I don´t think the foundation is the 100% right one to blame. I think many exchanges demanded to "resolve" the issue, to not have to sell stolen coins. ( I don´t exactly know why the do even care). And the flagging approach might be a way to at least track those coins. But I really like that NEM is neither forking nor the foundation has the possibility to halt the network.

I think the right way would have been to just been to give all the responsibility to CC and let them try to handle it. It´s actually a quite large of coins in % so I would like to see them in circulation again. But that might be a good point to improve, if the chance is taken right
sr. member
Activity: 511
Merit: 250
Open and Transparent Science Powered By Blockchain
On a positive note, all publicity is good publicity...
hero member
Activity: 834
Merit: 524
Nxt NEM
beside support authorities tracking coins nothing that NEM foundation can and should do

all the responsibility is on the hacked exchange shoulders
and the shoulders of the people who did trust this exchange

blockchain got invented to remove trust out of exchange value
if people decide put trust back in by trust a exchange to protect their coins
then thats their own decision and they are responsible for the consequenses

never ever fork a coin because of external reasons

if i would be the  exchange i would offer the hacker 1 million $ as compensation for show them a security flaw
if he returns the coins

i guess its the only way he can monetize something
and it would be the most easy way situiation is resolved for all involved people


good points ... agreed with 2.5 of them.

When the NEM blockchain was just started, the Devs said several times that the safest place for the coins is your own account, do not trust in exchanges.
Anyway we must have some trust in exchanges, coz otherwise we could not use them.  
And if the exchange is saying thay they use cold storage, then it sounds safe enough.

I hope that there are few other ways to get the coins back, not just paying the ransoms or compensations.
The procedure which was in Tehfiend's post, seemed to be reasonable and possible to be implemented.

I do not believe in the vision that says "the coins are burned". Because [...CENSORED. Not a good idea to publish a "bad" idea.]

hero member
Activity: 834
Merit: 524
Nxt NEM
To the people worried about fungibility, they need to remember that this blacklist via tagging is not centrally enforceable. It is an opt-in tool that exchanges can use to avoid stolen XEM at THEIR discretion. NEM foundation can not enforce this blacklist so it's not a problem in relation to centralization.

As far as how the tagging might work, I would assume they might exempt known legit addresses like exchanges or community funds etc which would be trivial to do. I also assume they will not flag small amounts. Any innocent accounts that receive stolen funds and are flagged could simply surrender the stolen funds they received to have the tag removed. They could even automate all of this.

1) An account receives say 100+ stolen XEM.
2) System then flags the account via mosaic and includes a link to a PSA about the tag in the transactions message.
3) The PSA (public service announcement) explains instructions on where to return the stolen funds.
4) Account holder sends stolen funds to recovery account.
5) Flag is removed from account. In reality they can't automatically remove the flag so they could set a second flag that designates the account was cleaned. Or they could be sent enough of the mosaic to allow it to be removed manually.

Definitely feasible and an interesting way to address the issue of stolen funds.


good procedure ... maybe there are involved the "humans" I was needing Smiley

4b) If the Accont holder does not send, then the flag remains in his account ?
legendary
Activity: 1918
Merit: 1001
Its totally coinchecks fault, and cointelegraph incorrectly reported that NEM has no multisig in the news article, hence the hack happened.

The truth is that Coincheck were the ones lazy and had no multisig contract.

foolsih for an exchange not to use this.
Anyway, NEM technology has proven itself as secure.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
We might never know exactly what did lead to the loss of the coins from CC.

I know fungibility is one of the key facts in Crypto. But what are the actions right now ?

Sure the foundation could just do nothing and let the markets collapse when the hacker is selling, but how would that help anyone involved.

In a true decentralized way, there is no possibilty to just hardfork and move on like ETH did.

How I get it is, that the devs try to flag the accounts and make it at least harder to sell the stolen coins. They can just help sending those mosaics, but anyone could develop such a tool and send mosaics. Whether it helps the exchanges in the longrun is not in the hands of the foundation. But that´s a good thing. They can´t "solve" this issue, but doing their best.

I would love to hear your solution/way to do it better

The best (re)action "right now" is doing nothing.

Don't try to "help."  That is counterproductive.

Those who formerly had NEM on a vulnerable exchange deserve to lose their coins.  They are by definition weak hands for letting someone take their coins.

Helping them with convoluted, unworkable tainting nonsense only encourages them to make the same mistake again.

They need tough love so they learn a lesson, not indulgence so they learn to depend on bailouts.

The best thing is for the stolen coins to be redistributed into stronger hands.  The attacker has already taken the first step by helping himself to the weaklings' coins.

The next step is to sell them off and hope NEM is antifragile enough to survive and emerge stronger from the harsh lessons in security and fungibility.

The hacker or whatever must be rewarded for finding the vulnerability, or it will discourage others from pen-testing.  The mechanism for that to happen is for those with empty bags to pay the hacker to refill them.  The re-buyers will thus have more skin in the game and not be so greedy and careless in the future.  That goes for the exchange as well as its customers.

NEM devs and community must also work on making their coin fungible and their network permissionless and decentralized.

But they don't want to do that.  Every architectural and organizational governance design decision shows NEM is fully intended to be the vanity project of one Satoshi-wannabe guy.

If Bitcoin can recover from dozens of MtGoxes and be stronger than ever WTF is NEM's excuse for treating its users like little babies who must be mollycoddled and protected from the consequences of their poor decisions?

Look to Bitcoin's history for an example of leaderless governance and antifragility to emulate.  Look to Monero for an example of 100% fungible (IE cannot be tainted) coins moving through a permissionless (IE can't be evil) network.

A little harsh, no? But your logic is damned sound. Harsh truths for a HODLer of my scale.

I’d like to see gentlemand’s response to this.

I do agree that the NEM team congratulating themselves on this is a bit ridiculous. But equally it isn’t their fault and they’re just trying to help. Remember that NEM is far more commercial a project than BTC and accordingly will have more sympathy and centralized governance you rail against.

What do others here think?

I just don't like the idea of not having compassion for those who lost their Nems. People will make human mistakes, especially when everything seems to be going good. It's not easy to lose money. But forget about crypto, the tone was like saying, "He was walking, got distracted because he noticed a full moon, a criminal saw his distraction, tripped him, landed face first and broke his face and got his wallet stolen. That's good for him for not paying attention, let the stronger one, the criminal that noticed his distraction have the money. He deserves it more."


What ideas you like or don't like have zero bearing on the facts of the matter.

Nobody denied that "people will make human mistakes."  The debate is about the best way to go forward given that completely obvious and undisputed fact.

Your cherry-picked analogy is idiotic.  Buying NEM because you are a greedy moonchild and choosing to keep it on an exchange is nothing like walking and being distracted.

Please try to stick to the actual highly technical subject matter instead of retreating into lazy, derpy generalizations and obviously misleading, self-pitying, irrelevant nonsense about victimology.

The topic of this thread is NEM and the reported hack of an exchange.  If you cannot participate in that discussion in a meaningful way, shut the hell up and listen to the adults talk.

Better yet, go read some Nassim Taleb and come back when you are ready to accept responsibility for your regrettable decisions instead of demanding bailouts and sympathy.

Your fragile little emotions are not important.  Nobody cares how you feel, especially when you mewl for "compassion" like a goddamn infant.  This is crypto, not day care.  Grow up and learn to function in the harsh realities of the real world.  Or perish.  Bitcoin doesn't care one way or the other, and neither do I.
legendary
Activity: 1240
Merit: 1001
Thank God I'm an atheist
Alexandra interviews Jeff McDonald about CoinCheck hack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAN0C3__5qU
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