New EU AML ban bitcoin anonymous payment - page 2.

stompix

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on March 24, 2024, 12:13:59 PM

Quote from: stompix on March 23, 2024, 04:40:42 PM

It's a about any company not allowed to receive a payment of over 3000 euros from an anonymous source!

Where did you read this upper limit? In here, I read that any payment from an "anonymous source" is proposed to become illegal. And what's an anonymous source exactly? Am I supposed to identify my UTXO to the government? Otherwise, how is it supposed to work?

From here:
https://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/ST-6220-2024-REV-1/en/pdf
Both articles 31b and 58 are about " crypto-asset service providers", the EU doesn't regulate and doesn't care about anything that is not a contract between two persons in the EU, if it's personal finances, each country on its own.

Also this:
https://twitter.com/paddi_hansen/status/1771929859704389954

Far more detailed analysis that I could ever do and obviously moar than what screaming guys on twitter have to say!
Especially this line:
https://twitter.com/paddi_hansen/status/1771929885184844115

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on March 24, 2024, 12:13:59 PM

I don't think this is how it works. As far as I understand, the store is forbidden from accepting a crypto transaction whose source is not reported to the government, therefore accept only KYC, "clean" coins directly from exchanges.

It was just an example for the stupidity of the bravado, I sent a tx the CIA didn't stop me, such hero, but I made it a bit to simple!
Stores will be limited at above value x (again each country can amend these values), to some restricted way of payments, so when you purchase over the sum the customer won't be able to pay unless he uses pre-approved methods, card, wire, but if some crypto provider regulated in the said country manages to do that it will be again accepted, taking into account it's a payment provide who goes through all KYC/AML regulations just like a bank!

And no as long as a store accepts crypto it comes to its own "due diligence" .

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Quote from: stompix on March 23, 2024, 04:40:42 PM

It's a about any company not allowed to receive a payment of over 3000 euros from an anonymous source!

Where did you read this upper limit? In here, I read that any payment from an "anonymous source" is proposed to become illegal. And what's an anonymous source exactly? Am I supposed to identify my UTXO to the government? Otherwise, how is it supposed to work?

Quote from: stompix on March 23, 2024, 04:40:42 PM

You are free to enter a store and, buy a 5000 euro tv and try to pay with crypto, but the store will simply refuse your payment unless you id yourself! So?

I don't think this is how it works. As far as I understand, the store is forbidden from accepting a crypto transaction whose source is not reported to the government, therefore accept only KYC, "clean" coins directly from exchanges.

Please convince me you're right, because I would absolutely rather be wrong in here.

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One of the striking things about the ban (which is scheduled to be enforced after three years) is that they are banning self custody wallets. How can they even enforce a ban on any citizen of the EU if they wish to download a wallet on their computer or phone? It will not even be practical.

It seems to be another unnecessary obstacle put in the way of the crypto community which is designed to stifle the way it is growing: https://beincrypto.com/eu-bans-unidentified-self-hosted-crypto/

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Quote from: Vincom on March 23, 2024, 07:10:48 PM

A confusing decision, I thought the EU was a friendly environment for crypto when they already had the MiCA law. I understand that the EU wants to track the flow of money in crypto to detect money laundering, but this law is not good for crypto because it almost goes against the core values related to decentralization and the need for self-custody of assets in the crypto market.

The EU is still friendly to crypto, they just treat crypto as money! See how simple this is, we have had limits on spending cash for years, even decades, and nobody here knew or didn't care about it, now that crypto payments are legal, what a surprise, they must follow the same rule as fiat! Pickachu face!

I mean common people, what government in what world would allow unrestricted anonymous payments with no limits? Let's be real here!

Quote from: ChiBitCTy on March 23, 2024, 08:29:12 PM

The one alt that I've been a big fan of is Monero, but I knew that it would have very limited upside price wise as governments would eventually shut down the allowance of exchanges to to transact it (buy/sell), and that's exactly whats happening..

I got this from a monero sub on reddit, obviously downvoted into oblivion but the guy was right:

Quote from: davis196 on March 24, 2024, 02:13:30 AM

We've seen this before. Bitcoin is having a bull run and the regulators and governments start creating FUD via proposals for mindless crypto regulation.

The proposal was public and voted and amended since 2021:
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/resource.html?uri=cellar:0a4db7d6-eace-11eb-93a8-01aa75ed71a1.0001.02/DOC_1&format=PDF

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Quote from: PX-Z on March 23, 2024, 10:43:40 AM

Good thing i don't live in EU, unfortunately to those. But it looks like useless to me if transacting using non-custodial wallets. Not unless there's only a required wallet to use in every transaction which will be a fuck up to every EU citizen. But if not, this is just absurd law.

Most nations especially developing ones always copy the policies of the European Union nations. I don't know where you live but the law might come to your country sooner or later. Bitcoin I not just a threat to Europe but the entire world government.

Quote from: davis196 on March 24, 2024, 02:13:30 AM

I guess that I'm gonna just "fly under the radar" since most of my payments are way below 3,000 euro.
Crypto to fiat transaction(and vice versa) aren't anonymous because the crypto seller knows your bank account info such as name, address, IBAN, etc. Only crypto-to-crypto transactions can be truly anonymous and I don't know how the European regulators are going to track and ban transactions, which are happening on the blockchain. We've seen this before. Bitcoin is having a bull run and the regulators and governments start creating FUD via proposals for mindless crypto regulation. Nothing new here. I guess that Switzerland is the best country in Europe when it comes to crypto regulations.

To avoid these restrictions one can also split payments that are above the €3000 threshold. Only crypto-to-crypto transaction that uses a non-custodial wallet are pseudonymous and they can be traced if these coins are later moved to centralised platforms. I doubt if this law will lead to FUD which can affect the price of Bitcoin.

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Quote from: Oshosondy on March 23, 2024, 07:43:20 AM

It is not only bitcoin payment but other cryptocurrencies.

I have just seen this on X. I think it will be true.

Quote

BREAKING

NEW EU AML LAWS BAN ALL ANONYMOUS CRYPTO PAYMENTS.

ANY CASH PAYMENT ABOVE €10,000 WILL BECOME ILLEGAL, WHILE ALSO ANONYMOUS CASH PAYMENTS ABOVE €3,000.

https://twitter.com/Ashcryptoreal/status/1771470306848170399?t=Mos0R80oSD44bjinonMJww&s=1

Government just want control when there paper fiat is anonymous. But this is rubbish because some people will still use noncustodial wallet for transactions.

Stupid law.

I guess that I'm gonna just "fly under the radar" since most of my payments are way below 3,000 euro.
Crypto to fiat transaction(and vice versa) aren't anonymous because the crypto seller knows your bank account info such as name, address, IBAN, etc. Only crypto-to-crypto transactions can be truly anonymous and I don't know how the European regulators are going to track and ban transactions, which are happening on the blockchain. We've seen this before. Bitcoin is having a bull run and the regulators and governments start creating FUD via proposals for mindless crypto regulation. Nothing new here. I guess that Switzerland is the best country in Europe when it comes to crypto regulations.

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Quote from: Oshosondy on March 23, 2024, 07:43:20 AM

Government just want control when there paper fiat is anonymous. But this is rubbish because some people will still use noncustodial wallet for transactions.

There are more documents to read about this problem in future, not now. If nothing changes, this will come into force after 3 years, in 2027.

We are fine just now but I believe there will be many things to be changed and this legislation is very hard to execute practically. It's impossible to control cryptocurrency flow if people use non custodial wallet.

Can governments and their agencies, ban all websites to accept Bitcoin, cryptocurrencies from non custodial wallets, no KYC?
I doubt they will be able to do this. Citizens will stand up and fight back.

EU Lawmakers to Vote on Limited Ban on Self-Hosted Crypto Payments
EU committees approve ban on anonymous crypto transactions via hosted wallets
Patrick Breyer's post on X
His website.

PROVISIONAL AGREEMENT RESULTING FROM INTERINSTITUTIONAL NEGOTIATIONS

Quote

By [3 years after the entry into force of this Regulation], AMLA shall issueguidelines addressed to obliged entities on:
(a) the establishment of outsourcing relationships, including any subsequent outsourcing relationship, in accordance with this article, their governance and procedures for monitoring the implementation offunctions by the service provider and in particular those functions thatare to be regarded as critical;
(b) the roles and responsibility of the obliged entity and the service provider within an outsourcing agreement;
(c) supervisory approaches to outsourcing as well as supervisory expectations regarding the outsourcing of critical functions.

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I think in some countries they already do this. Some exchanges are already complying and if you want to withdraw you need to prove that the wallet you are sending it to is yours.

Basically a huge headache for the exchanges to do this. Because before they can process withdraws to an address not held by you, you need to provide proof who you are sending it to.

You also can easily just send it to yourself and then send it to whomever you wish.

ChiBitCTy

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The one alt that I've been a big fan of is Monero, but I knew that it would have very limited upside price wise as governments would eventually shut down the allowance of exchanges to to transact it (buy/sell), and that's exactly whats happening. It's also why I've been dead set against bitcoin ever being anonymous (cracks me up so many articles to this day claim that it is smh). Because it would never get to where it's gotten had it been. I find it interesting that so many still don't see this or argue against it not being anonymous. If you want that, buy/use monero.

I think there will always be ways to make btc transactions much more difficult to follow/track. I dont have the expertise to say this with any confidence but would imagine so.

Banning transactions of over 10k cash...the EU...eastern world dictator type bs there. If you have a transaction over 3k, you have to report it. No one one will.

.

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Quote from: Oshosondy on March 23, 2024, 07:43:20 AM

It is not only bitcoin payment but other cryptocurrencies.

I have just seen this on X. I think it will be true.

Quote

BREAKING

NEW EU AML LAWS BAN ALL ANONYMOUS CRYPTO PAYMENTS.

ANY CASH PAYMENT ABOVE €10,000 WILL BECOME ILLEGAL, WHILE ALSO ANONYMOUS CASH PAYMENTS ABOVE €3,000.

Government just want control when there paper fiat is anonymous. But this is rubbish because some people will still use noncustodial wallet for transactions.

Stupid law.

A confusing decision, I thought the EU was a friendly environment for crypto when they already had the MiCA law. I understand that the EU wants to track the flow of money in crypto to detect money laundering, but this law is not good for crypto because it almost goes against the core values related to decentralization and the need for self-custody of assets in the crypto market. Perhaps its sole purpose is to discourage users from self-custody and paying with crypto, I worry that this will be learned by other governments in the future.

I myself don't like this, but to be honest, if I were a member of the government, I haven't found the best solution to balance the freedom of crypto with the government's responsibility to manage. Perhaps a politician with experience with the crypto market can come up with a better solution for this new legal framework.

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Quote from: stompix on March 23, 2024, 04:40:42 PM

Quote from: Kruw on March 23, 2024, 03:00:47 PM

This isn't the case, you are completely anonymous when you coinjoin. Participants in a group transaction can't be distinguished from each other since there's multiple clones created with the exact same value -

You don't understand what this ban is about, it's not about stopping you from sending a tx!
It's a about any company not allowed to receive a payment of over 3000 euros from an anonymous source!

So your bravado is...empty slogan!

You are free to enter a store and, buy a 5000 euro tv and try to pay with crypto, but the store will simply refuse your payment unless you id yourself! So?
What does any mixing, conjoin or anything else solve here?

As for the all caps breaking news...

Quote

The new AML legislation applies certain limits for cash transactions and anonymous cryptocurrency payments. Under the new rules, anonymous cash payments over 3,000 euros will be banned in commercial transactions, and cash payments over 10,000 euros will be completely banned in business transactions.

The new legislation is expected to be fully operational within three years from its entry into force.

I doubt more than 5% of the forum does more than 2 payments over 3000 euros for goods a year that can be split into two or three.

Exactly. Personally I have zero use for a cojoin service and cannot think of a single reason to use them.
Aside from a minuscule amount from the contributions address in my sig, every Satoshi I have are from mining at Kanopool over the past decade and are new, fully traceable coins that have never left my ownership. When needed I have no problem paying the taxes due on them and if questions arise regarding their source, I can easily prove their history. Worse, coins from known cojoin services quite rightly often raise red flags with exchanges.

The thing about purchasing durable goods is that the creation and at least 1st-tier distribution of said goods requires fiat so the companies can pay their suppliers and lenders. That means it behooves the final seller accepting BTC or other crypto as payment to have confidence there is no legal questions about the coins because without doubt that final seller has to pay their suppliers in fiat gained from exchanging the crypto they receive into fiat. Receiving the coins from a registered exchange or crypto bank makes them good as gold or any fiat-based credit card because source of the funds is known.

If you insist on paying cash where do you get it from? For most folks - from an ATM & their bank accounts. How does the money get into the accounts? From your job or otherwise traceable means. So, even fiat is traceable unless it comes from um, questionable means.

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Quote from: PrivacyG on March 23, 2024, 02:37:49 PM

Do not celebrate too early because this is coming world wide soon. I thought United States law about Cryptocurrencies was very diabolic years ago. Now it is coming to Europe. Maybe in an even worse version.

It will be like this in big countries at least. Smaller countries will make an effort to profit off this by letting us continue paying anonymously and making Know Your Customer NON mandatory

Don't worry it's already in my list, government crocs in my area already discusses this things already but doesn't have enough concrete plan and guidelines. Idk when it will be implemented but as long it's not that this absurd its good.

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Those of us who have been using centralised exchanges or wallets will have trouble using any kind of coin-mixing service. I am encountering an issue with Binance when one of my clients sent BNB by using a mixer. I am not sure whether Binance will resolve my issue or not; they temporarily suspended my account. However, the government strictly wants to control Bitcoin. It will become very hard to spend anonymous coins since all the CEX requires KYC and does not accept funds from the mixers. Very soon, we will have to use only P2P exchanges without KYC or avoid any coin-mixing services.

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Quote from: Kruw on March 23, 2024, 03:00:47 PM

This isn't the case, you are completely anonymous when you coinjoin. Participants in a group transaction can't be distinguished from each other since there's multiple clones created with the exact same value -

Quote from: Kruw on March 23, 2024, 07:46:39 AM

I just sent an anonymous payment for my phone bill that confirmed 15 minutes ago - https://mempool.space/tx/bc1d47736e2c9cecff996efb191406ac40c96b858170941c0f9b40cb5e04875b

AND I'M GONNA DO IT AGAIN NEXT MONTH TOO Cool

You don't understand what this ban is about, it's not about stopping you from sending a tx!
It's a about any company not allowed to receive a payment of over 3000 euros from an anonymous source!

So your bravado is...empty slogan!

You are free to enter a store and, buy a 5000 euro tv and try to pay with crypto, but the store will simply refuse your payment unless you id yourself! So?
What does any mixing, conjoin or anything else solve here?

As for the all caps breaking news...

Quote

The new AML legislation applies certain limits for cash transactions and anonymous cryptocurrency payments. Under the new rules, anonymous cash payments over 3,000 euros will be banned in commercial transactions, and cash payments over 10,000 euros will be completely banned in business transactions.

The new legislation is expected to be fully operational within three years from its entry into force.

I doubt more than 5% of the forum does more than 2 payments over 3000 euros for goods a year that can be split into two or three.

Z-tight

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BTC tx's are pseudonymous and the only way to carry out anonymous tx's using BTC is if you create CoinJoin tx's or send your coins through a mixer. I find it hard to understand how they would implement this law; centralized exchanges already require kyc, so it is either they are going to target privacy solutions, just like the u.s. is doing with BTC mixers. But then again people who use CoinJoin implementations should also use p2p exchanges, so i don't know how the government is going to track such paymemts or tx's.

PrivacyG

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Quote from: Hispo on March 23, 2024, 03:45:04 PM

I would be very ironic and funny if in the end these kinds of laws being applied in the European Union and in the United States, in the end convinced people to move most of their money to non-custodial wallets, instead using their exchanges to manage their money and carry out transactions. If so, what would the European Union and the USA do?

You would be surprised knowing how easy it is for them to find out who is using Bitcoin and who is not. Considering the majority of the world does not care about Privacy and even those who do care about it still use the Internet improperly, it is pretty easy to check who is 'the bad guy'.

More over. How many of us all would continue using Bitcoin the 'illegal' way if that is the case? I doubt many would risk it. Most of them would obey unfortunately.

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Quote from: PX-Z on March 23, 2024, 10:43:40 AM

Good thing i don't live in EU, unfortunately to those. But it looks like useless to me if transacting using non-custodial wallets. Not unless there's only a required wallet to use in every transaction which will be a fuck up to every EU citizen. But if not, this is just absurd law.

I would be very ironic and funny if in the end these kinds of laws being applied in the European Union and in the United States, in the end convinced people to move most of their money to non-custodial wallets, instead using their exchanges to manage their money and carry out transactions. If so, what would the European Union and the USA do? Since we are talking about free software/open source, it would be very difficult for anyone to police people downloading wallets of their phones and computers. I still believe this could be about preparing the path for the incoming Digital Euro to be launched and becoming widespread with little resistance from Bitcoin and alternative currencies. Afterall, if they are all about replacing paper with electronic money, the restrictions on electronic money will be lighter than those applied to crypto.

Also, it is easy to say that those who live in the EU and happen to be holders of Bitcoin are unfortunate, but living in Europa has other advantages which may or may not be related to Bitcoin and alternative currencies.

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Quote from: NotFuzzyWarm on March 23, 2024, 02:24:19 PM

Wrong. BTC has never been totally anonymous. What part of it being an open public ledger does not make that clear?

Only people who truly have no idea of what a public blockchain ledger is think that it is anonymous.

The only anonymous bit about it is that finding who owns any given wallet/address is very hard to do until it is either used to buy physical items or is converted to fiat. That said, every single Tx in & out is a fully traceable open record.

This isn't the case, you are completely anonymous when you coinjoin. Participants in a group transaction can't be distinguished from each other since there's multiple clones created with the exact same value -

Quote from: Kruw on March 23, 2024, 07:46:39 AM

I just sent an anonymous payment for my phone bill that confirmed 15 minutes ago - https://mempool.space/tx/bc1d47736e2c9cecff996efb191406ac40c96b858170941c0f9b40cb5e04875b

AND I'M GONNA DO IT AGAIN NEXT MONTH TOO Cool

PrivacyG

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Quote from: PX-Z on March 23, 2024, 10:43:40 AM

Good thing i don't live in EU, unfortunately to those. But it looks like useless to me if transacting using non-custodial wallets. Not unless there's only a required wallet to use in every transaction which will be a fuck up to every EU citizen. But if not, this is just absurd law.

Do not celebrate too early because this is coming world wide soon. I thought United States law about Cryptocurrencies was very diabolic years ago. Now it is coming to Europe. Maybe in an even worse version.

It will be like this in big countries at least. Smaller countries will make an effort to profit off this by letting us continue paying anonymously and making Know Your Customer NON mandatory.

-----

Quote from: dkbit98 on March 23, 2024, 02:04:41 PM

This is looking more and more like 1984 scenario.

Unfortunately this is very real and very true. Who ever thinks this is just imaginary should take three steps back and look at the picture of the world again.

Topic: New EU AML ban bitcoin anonymous payment - page 2. (Read 714 times)