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Topic: [NEWS] Star Trek / MONERO - RANSOMWARE - page 2. (Read 2513 times)

legendary
Activity: 1540
Merit: 1011
FUD Philanthropist™
March 18, 2017, 09:05:52 PM
#24
Spoetnik, plain and simple you're such an idiot that man can rarely encounter. Such a poltron mentality & monumental stupidity, congratulations.

That's nice ..anything to say on the topic ?

I came here to hear YOUR opinion and chat about crypto.
I didn't get it.
All i got was an insult.
Fine, but it would behoove you to illustrate your point.

I will thank you for the opportunity to Google search the word "poltron" though..
Apparently people he thinks i am a coward.
Sure.. what ever floats your boat bud.

What i find interesting about that is it's a FRENCH reference.
Which i have pointed out how there is a French connection with Monero.
Supposedly there is 1 or 2 guys who are French that always defend Monero.
But the stats tell a different story.. it seems fair to draw a conclusion that half of all Monero shill's are french.
*IF* you actually believed all these accounts that show up are real separate people  Cheesy
And no i won't bother going through the list and naming names.. you will all lie about it anyway.
Many of you know damn well who i am talking about and some of them may be on the topic..
[NEWS] Monero David Latapie French Police Fraud [updated]

So yeah.. surprise surprise a French insult  Cheesy
Who's dumb now ? Wink
See you guys slip up time after time year after year and i am here to rub your nose in it.  Cool
No idea why but Monero seems to attract an obsessive deceitful crowd that thinks the ends justifies the means.
In other words Monero is a "good coin" there for what ever we do is justified.. you all think.
Problem is.. THAT is what makes it a bad coin in the first place.

Should i carry on trying to stay on topic and respond to more insults ?
They troll me and neg me ruining my rating and mouth me off and harass me and my topics.
And you wonder why i posted this here when i seen it browsing a tech News site ?
legendary
Activity: 888
Merit: 1000
Monero - secure, private and untraceable currency.
March 18, 2017, 03:15:20 PM
#23
Spoetnik, plain and simple you're such an idiot that man can rarely encounter. Such a poltron mentality & monumental stupidity, congratulations.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1442
thefuzzstone.github.io
March 18, 2017, 02:26:30 PM
#22
Quote
the Kirk ransomware asks victims to pay in Monero

Finally...  Roll Eyes
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
March 18, 2017, 01:42:12 PM
#21
I love how you make assumptions then parade them around as fact.
If i was setting up a Ransomware last little while i would probably be looking at Monero simply because the price is / was more positioned to go up than DASH that already peaked.

Because you think these guys KEEP it to "invest" ??  Grin

DASH didn't "peek".  It will go to the moon.  Being centralized, it is the perfect crypto for "investors".

Quote
Your a fervent rabid maniacal Monero shill.
You only ever comment to defend Monero.. usually by proxy for maximum deniability plausibility.
AKA: you do it all clever & shit so you can play dumb about it.
Look around ..you showed up here on this topic didn't you ?
Ding ding ding Monero topic.. out comes Dino with the usual bullshit.

What bullshit ?  That monero is about the only seriously anon coin with some volume (so that you can hide inside) ?  ZEC has also quite good anon crypto, but the fact that it is not compulsory is maybe a problem.  But I have to admit that now that the anon part went up from 6% to 29% makes it look more attractive as a respectable crypto coin.  It should have been 100%, but that's a fundamental error that the ZEC people made, but if the anon fraction remains high enough, it may be one of the other coins I technologically like.  It being a corporate coin makes me dislike it on that side, but I do appreciate the crypto part of it.

Quote
And look around you are being led around like a horse and yeah you were off-topic.. you hijacked it with an anon debate.

I didn't.  It is quite obvious that monero was picked by these people for the anon side.  Because it is a true crypto currency application, to ask for ransoms.  (whether ransomware or other ransoms).   Might be a niche for kidnapping too.  THAT is the true nature of crypto, and if you still don't get it, you'll never get it.


Quote
Yet again as you have done lots last few months.
Kinda funny you showed up not long ago and have been pounding this place with anti-law monero bullshit.
I don't recall seeing you all along with me here commenting the last 4 straight years.

Because anti-law is the only serious niche for crypto.  All other applications are not going to work out, because centralized systems are better at it.  What's the basis of crypto ?  Trustless ; decentralized.  Why do you need that ?   To not have single points of failure by mighty enemies.  What enemies ?  Violence monopolists.  Because if not, you can make a deal with the violence monopolist to protect your single point of failure by law and by police.  So the only way to NEED a trustless decentralized system is if you have to fight the violence monopolist.  Otherwise, it is wasted effort.

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I love how you bend over backwards here ignoring 99.99% of everything i ever say then make arguments over unrelated bullshit like a fucking contrarian.

I can say that of you too.  I'm stating that crypto is a useless exercise if it is to be legal/law abiding/regulated.  Any centralized system with legal protection will be better.

Quote
Your incessant anti-law campaign here is tiring.. start your own topics maybe instead of spamming mine.

Because it is the only thing that makes sense in crypto.  And who started a topic about an anon coin and something illegal ? Isn't this what this thread is about ?  I just say that this is a perfectly right application of crypto.  Not more, not less.  That's what crypto is made for.  Even though most idiots in crypto don't understand it and think that it is a replacement for VISA.

If crypto can't work for this kind of niche, then crypto is entirely useless.
legendary
Activity: 1540
Merit: 1011
FUD Philanthropist™
March 18, 2017, 12:12:13 PM
#20
Did they choose Monero for a specific reason over other anon coins ? Hmm ?

Because of all currently "big" altcoins, it is the only one with credible anonymity.

DASH is only as anonymous as the tumblers don't collude and don't keep logs and that's highly doubtful with Evan in control.  ZCASH is not anonymous by default and has a very small anonymity set.

The smaller coins are too hard to get by for the victims.  Monero can be bought on several exchanges, it is traded a lot, and as it is essentially not traceable, if you withdraw monero from an exchange amongst all the traders, nobody will be able to point at you specifically.



I love how you make assumptions then parade them around as fact.
If i was setting up a Ransomware last little while i would probably be looking at Monero simply because the price is / was more positioned to go up than DASH that already peaked.

Your a fervent rabid maniacal Monero shill.
You only ever comment to defend Monero.. usually by proxy for maximum deniability plausibility.
AKA: you do it all clever & shit so you can play dumb about it.
Look around ..you showed up here on this topic didn't you ?
Ding ding ding Monero topic.. out comes Dino with the usual bullshit.

I have no idea who is eating up all your bullshit Dino.
I'd like to poll the community to see just how much of your speeches these Investards here are eating up.

And look around you are being led around like a horse and yeah you were off-topic.. you hijacked it with an anon debate.
Yet again as you have done lots last few months.
Kinda funny you showed up not long ago and have been pounding this place with anti-law monero bullshit.
I don't recall seeing you all along with me here commenting the last 4 straight years.

So Dino..
You wanna open the can of worms ?
Go back and read what i said and don't look for the weak sentence in the entire rant and home in on that like an obsessive mental case and address the underlying point or point(s) i made.
I love how you bend over backwards here ignoring 99.99% of everything i ever say then make arguments over unrelated bullshit like a fucking contrarian.

You said what i quoted above because i herded you.
Because once again you railed off topic hell bent on defending ANON.
Your incessant anti-law campaign here is tiring.. start your own topics maybe instead of spamming mine.

First thing you assholes here said was i had a "FUD vector"
Look in the fucking mirror.  Roll Eyes
Did i post this to rail on for the billionth time about ANTI-ANON rhetoric ?
No.. because i created a topic on that topic long ago addressing the matter specifically.

Dealing with people here is frustrating.
You have nerds who think they are mensa geniuses yet do not possess basic forum skills.
You all know what is or is not appropriate to post but you don't care..
You simply post what ever you want on any topic for any reason.
Almost like there was no topic titles at all.
Then you have the bloody audacity to rail on lecturing people like you are "smart"
If you can't stay on topic then you lose pretty much all of your credibility right then and there.

So.. want to continue to hijack my topic with a FUD "vector" then please divert your efforts to the appropriate discussion topic guys.
Starting with Dino Wink

[FACT] Anon coins will never work !

Maybe the FBI should hurry up and arrest some of you so i don't have to hear your crypto rebel anarchist rhetoric.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
March 18, 2017, 11:25:06 AM
#19
All the same Dino the handcuffs click closed regardless..

- Criminals get arrested all the time.
- Computer code is not trust worthy.


Sure.  Soldiers get killed.  That doesn't stop armies from fighting.

Quote
Arguing on the internet will not keep people from going to jail.

See above.  It is a matter of risk management.  IF IN ANY CASE you want to do something the state doesn't like, then you better use the tools that help you do so.  That doesn't mean that the risk of doing so is gone, but it is simply diminished.

If you trade on a dark market with monero, chances of being caught because of that are smaller than if you do it with bitcoin or fiat.

Quote
If i was to accept that crypto coins can only be fully anon i would have to say then that they are doomed to be hacked and exploited leaving users highly vulnerable to getting arrested for the various crimes they commit with it.

No, if in ANY CASE they would "commit these crimes"  (I don't consider selling something to someone else a crime, only the state does), then the chance of this happening is smaller if they use crypto protection than if they do it open in the blue.  That should be obvious, no ?  IF the crypto "gets cracked" (not sure), then they are on the same level as if they did it outright in the blue.  So doing it outright in the blue is ALWAYS riskier than trying to hide with crypto.  

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The difference is you are talking about crimes Dino.
See how your crypto coins run into law ?
Why does law apply to drug trafficking but not money laundering with a currency ?

Huh ?  My point is that if you can do it with fiat, you should do it with fiat.  And if it is fully legal, most probably you can do it with fiat.  So no crypto needed AT ALL.

Quote
FIAT is used for legal or not tasks but it's also regulated.
So this notion that a crypto coin MUST be defiant to any and all regulations doesn't make sense to me.

But if it is not regulated, it will not be legal or it will end up being regulated.  No thing with value is unregulated in our world. Otherwise, states know that people flee into it, and states cannot steal it any more.  So ALL things of value are regulated or end up being so.  What unregulated, but perfectly legal things do you have in mind ?  I can't think of any.

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You see guys you sort of lost the battle long ago and are now complying with law and harping on that you are fighting the man.. when you are not !

No, I'm simply saying that crypto has no use outside of these things.  It has absolutely no sense.   Crypto is for unregulated (and hence lawless/illegal/....) stuff, or for greater fool games.  And that's it.  

Quote
@Dino
Think of this.
How can an anon coin exist when there are no anon exchanges ?
See a problem ?

In circles of course.   And distributed exchanges for other crypto.  Suppose only bitcoin is allowed on exchanges.  Then put in place distributed exchanges where you can trade bitcoin for anon coins and back.  What's the problem ?  

Quote
You all chant about wanting decentralization (as do i)
While you use centralized services to accompany your allegedly private / decentralized coins.

Of course you shouldn't.

Quote
Further more why was the JAXX wallet abandoned ?

Monero's code is too complicated for the JAXX programmers.

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Look instead at what is actually happening and what actually MIGHT happen down the road.
And if you all want to place bets on Monero vs the US govt then go ahead.
I'd say they lost the battle already and the rest is a formality yet to play out.

How so ?  What stops me from launching a monero2, monero3, monero22352 in small communities that want to have closed economies away from state and so on, and of which those states aren't even aware ?  Connected on distributed exchanges in a mesh-like way ?

But tell me, what use is crypto if it isn't that ?  Why go through all the hassle if you can do it legally with a credit card ?  What's the point of this stuff ?

Quote
There is no battle to be won guys.
If there was i am not taking the side with Ransomware makers and Dark Market users.
And not so much because of morality reasons either but because of risk.

Sure, but then, you're not interested in making Ransomware, or in running a dark market either. So you have no use for crypto.  That's my point.  Use your credit card.  Good enough for what you want to buy.

hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
March 18, 2017, 09:22:32 AM
#18
Did they choose Monero for a specific reason over other anon coins ? Hmm ?

Because of all currently "big" altcoins, it is the only one with credible anonymity.

DASH is only as anonymous as the tumblers don't collude and don't keep logs and that's highly doubtful with Evan in control.  ZCASH is not anonymous by default and has a very small anonymity set.

The smaller coins are too hard to get by for the victims.  Monero can be bought on several exchanges, it is traded a lot, and as it is essentially not traceable, if you withdraw monero from an exchange amongst all the traders, nobody will be able to point at you specifically.

legendary
Activity: 1540
Merit: 1011
FUD Philanthropist™
March 18, 2017, 03:39:07 AM
#17
Anyone have any idea why the Star Trek theme ?  Cheesy

And i wonder if Monero dev's have been contacted by the FBI etc and then given and NDA.
Could there be holes in the privacy already ?
I was also thinking about Dash etc too..
Did they choose Monero for a specific reason over other anon coins ? Hmm ?

Monero is Captain Kirk approved !
And Spock (RIP) too i guess ..it's named after him.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
March 18, 2017, 02:44:31 AM
#16
Bullshit you are only seeing crytpo as a payment method not a tool or investment.

The only "tool" that a crypto ultimately is, is a payment method in one form or another.  And the only "investment" one can make, is in the utility of that tool, that is, in that payment method.  Thinking that chasing greater fools is "investment", is, well, deluded in the long term - although one can make a hell of a lot of money if one is in early enough, and gets out early enough, and have the bill paid by the last layer of greater fools.

Now, the tool, as a payment system, has to compete with fiat, which is the world-wide payment system in existence.  So it must have a competitive edge over fiat.  Fiat being centralized, and subsidized, it is difficult to have a competitive edge, but there are niches.  The ones I mentioned, where fiat cannot go.

Bitcoin, at this moment, costs $8 a transaction.  It used to be more expensive, before the halving BTW.  This is what is spend on keeping bitcoin running and secure.  If you want to invest in a system that costs $8 a transaction, there must be a utility that justifies that.  If you are only gambling on "it will rise", then you are playing a greater fool game, which is what most of the crypto scene is about for the moment, but this is not sustainable.  Get out on time if that's what you're doing.

legendary
Activity: 1540
Merit: 1011
FUD Philanthropist™
March 18, 2017, 02:33:35 AM
#15
Is this the same gambling website were another Monero coder won over 20,000 monero which was also run by the main developer Fluffy?

I posted a quote from fluffypony that has links to the source topic.
I have never heard of the incident you mentioned though.
*If that was true then yeah it would be suspicious for sure.
Do you have any links etc to show us all what you meant ?
sr. member
Activity: 254
Merit: 1258
March 18, 2017, 02:07:22 AM
#15
@Dino
You may be on to something here.. i do not totally disagree with what you are saying.
But we clearly have a different ideology on crypto.
In a twisted way this really does legitimize it ..it could be perceived.

Crypto can ONLY have value where fiat cannot go.  All the rest is at most greater-fool games, or fiat mimicking as crypto.  If fiat can do it, crypto has no value.  And fiat can do almost anything that is fully legal, so anything that is fully legal is mostly not open for crypto.   If fiat can do it, it can do it faster, better, cheaper.

This is why non-anon crypto is mostly meaningless/dangerous, like going to war with plastic guns.

If you are interested in crypto, it means that you are interested in doing things where fiat cannot go, and hence, mostly non-regulated/illegal/criminal OR you are interested in ripping off people in greater fool games OR you didn't understand what you were doing.

Bullshit you are only seeing crytpo as a payment method not a tool or investment.
legendary
Activity: 1540
Merit: 1011
FUD Philanthropist™
March 18, 2017, 02:24:31 AM
#14
All the same Dino the handcuffs click closed regardless..

- Criminals get arrested all the time.
- Computer code is not trust worthy.

You leaped right over what i said and what fluffypony said.
You focus like a laser beam on your anarchist crypto ideology.

Arguing on the internet will not keep people from going to jail.

If i was to accept that crypto coins can only be fully anon i would have to say then that they are doomed to be hacked and exploited leaving users highly vulnerable to getting arrested for the various crimes they commit with it.

The difference is you are talking about crimes Dino.
See how your crypto coins run into law ?
Why does law apply to drug trafficking but not money laundering with a currency ?

FIAT is used for legal or not tasks but it's also regulated.
So this notion that a crypto coin MUST be defiant to any and all regulations doesn't make sense to me.
Pandering to criminals is not a high priority of mine.
Privacy maybe yeah.. but you crypto-idealists seem to have NO PROBLEM with giving that privacy away.
Or you wouldn't be using Cryptsy, Poloniex or Coinbase or Github or this US based forum.. or ?

You see guys you sort of lost the battle long ago and are now complying with law and harping on that you are fighting the man.. when you are not !

@Dino
Think of this.
How can an anon coin exist when there are no anon exchanges ?
See a problem ?

You all chant about wanting decentralization (as do i)
While you use centralized services to accompany your allegedly private / decentralized coins.
Further more why was the JAXX wallet abandoned ?
Because a dictator waived his magic wand.
Don't be fooled by the illusion of a democracy or decentralization.

Look instead at what is actually happening and what actually MIGHT happen down the road.
And if you all want to place bets on Monero vs the US govt then go ahead.
I'd say they lost the battle already and the rest is a formality yet to play out.

All they have to do is throw their ass's in Guantanamo Bay and be done with it.
All the Risto's and fluffypony's and Febo's and smoothie's etc can be dealt with swiftly.
Let's see how much crypto rebel angst they have when the men in black knock on their door.
Let's see what they say when their computers are seized..
Will we see a French Police fraud story and a vanishing MEW treasurer again ?

There is no battle to be won guys.
If there was i am not taking the side with Ransomware makers and Dark Market users.
And not so much because of morality reasons either but because of risk.
I want no associations with any DM's bullshit.. i will not be shoveling a path through the forest for them to use.
Because you know who would be next.. Trillion dollar a year drug cartels doing mass money laundering.
Why build and defend a system for them ?
I am not sticking my neck out for those types.. fuck 'em.

And Dino FIAT exists because it was needed.. crypto coins are NOT.
FIAT has been around a long time.. Monero has barely been created.
One is entirely based on computer code.. the other is to an extent.

Is the purpose of crypto coins to circumvent any and all law across the globe ?
FIAT *IS* regulated and for good reason.
Bail-out's or law enforcement or even security for the end users.

Anyway i don't think i will change your mind Dino Wink
..and you suckered me into it again LOL
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
March 18, 2017, 01:50:28 AM
#13
@dinofelis
That was off-topic sort of..
Fair though and i see why you brought it up.
I don't think i should rail on repeating what we have already been over though.
We have already hijacked plenty of topics here with the ole Anon debate.

I am more focused on WHAT IS.
Than what should be..

No, it is perfectly on topic.  If you REALLY want to know what crypto is about, it is about the things you think are "FUD" and which you mentioned in your OP  No, it is its only true value proposition.  If crypto doesn't serve to do unregulated (and hence also illegal and sometimes even criminal) things, it has no use case.  So you coming up with "hey look, with that crypto, they do criminal things", duh.  Of course.  That's what it is made for.  If you can do it legally, you don't do it with crypto.  But if you cannot do it legally, you better protect yourself somewhat against being found, hence obfuscated transactions.  Crypto without obfuscation is an oxymoron.  Crypto is NOT about the rosy propaganda of "Alice buys a cup of coffee with bitcoin at Bob's coffee shop".  That only served to make greater fools enthusiastic.

Yes, there is a niche where you can do "unregulated" stuff that is not entirely illegal, because you are operating in a legal vacuum.  There, you can use transparent crypto like bitcoin.  Say, between offshore gambling sites or something.
sr. member
Activity: 283
Merit: 250
Best IoT Platform Based on Blockchain
March 18, 2017, 01:48:30 AM
#12
Is this the same gambling website were another Monero coder won over 20,000 monero which was also run by the main developer Fluffy?
legendary
Activity: 1540
Merit: 1011
FUD Philanthropist™
March 18, 2017, 01:44:40 AM
#11
@dinofelis
That was off-topic sort of..
Fair though and i see why you brought it up.
I don't think i should rail on repeating what we have already been over though.
We have already hijacked plenty of topics here with the ole Anon debate.

I am more focused on WHAT IS.
Than what should be..
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
March 18, 2017, 01:42:37 AM
#10
Only problem is with the Monero "eventual scenario" it would mean that every transaction ever made would be exposed.. leading to mass arrests of countless users from Dark Markets etc.
So.. fluffypony said himself that Monero will fail and they will get arrested.
When i said it, all the Monero cult shill's cried Troll and "FUD"  Roll Eyes

Well, between: "if they break the crypto, they might get the transaction history" and "I openly show the transaction history to everybody in this world with a bitcoin node", I would for sure think that the former gives a higher chance of protection than the latter, where there isn't any. 

That is: if in any case you're going to operate a dark market, should you:
- open a bank account under your name and do all the trading with that fiat account ?
- do the trading with bitcoin, and then check out at an exchange ?
- use monero and obfuscate your trail cryptographically and then check out at an exchange ?

What gives you the highest chance to get caught ?

Note that of course, operating a dark market IS risky, so if you go for 0 risk, you don't operate a dark market.  But that's not the question.  GIVEN that you are going to operate a dark market, what lowers you chances to get caught fast, most ?
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
March 18, 2017, 01:37:34 AM
#9
@Dino
You may be on to something here.. i do not totally disagree with what you are saying.
But we clearly have a different ideology on crypto.
In a twisted way this really does legitimize it ..it could be perceived.

Crypto can ONLY have value where fiat cannot go.  All the rest is at most greater-fool games, or fiat mimicking as crypto.  If fiat can do it, crypto has no value.  And fiat can do almost anything that is fully legal, so anything that is fully legal is mostly not open for crypto.   If fiat can do it, it can do it faster, better, cheaper.

This is why non-anon crypto is mostly meaningless/dangerous, like going to war with plastic guns.

If you are interested in crypto, it means that you are interested in doing things where fiat cannot go, and hence, mostly non-regulated/illegal/criminal OR you are interested in ripping off people in greater fool games OR you didn't understand what you were doing.
legendary
Activity: 1540
Merit: 1011
FUD Philanthropist™
March 18, 2017, 01:36:23 AM
#8
Help ?
Well think of this guys.. recall the news story about the FBI saying they would look into Monero ?
..they will now.

- The FBI investigates Ransomware.. FACT !

So they will now be looking at defeating the Monero anon security like i predicted long ago.
And by buying Monero coins you are all essentially betting a wager / investment on one side or the other.
If you don't mind let me clarify that further..
You Monero supporters are all now betting the farm on fluffypony's security vs the combined might and infinite resources of the United States Government.

PS:
Not long ago fluffypony's Monero Gambling site was hacked and he said what i said about Monero itself..

It would be interesting to know if this was a custom API or a public one, meaning that maybe other sites are affected and their owners could use this news to protect their sites too.
Of course patching your own is top priority.


Custom API, so I don't think this affects anyone else. We've disabled betting in the meantime whilst we sort this out, but I really think the lesson to other operators is not to be overconfident in your code or in your setup. Everything can and will be compromised, so assume it's going to happen and put safeguards in place to handle that eventual scenario.

Only problem is with the Monero "eventual scenario" it would mean that every transaction ever made would be exposed.. leading to mass arrests of countless users from Dark Markets etc.
So.. fluffypony said himself that Monero will fail and they will get arrested.
When i said it, all the Monero cult shill's cried Troll and "FUD"  Roll Eyes

I am flattered they took the words out of my mouth and used it as a shitcoin defense excuse though.

@kingcolex
You are correct i think though.. they do in fact need all the help they can get  Cheesy

@bathrobehero
NOW THAT WAS "FUD VECTOR" Wink



EDIT:

Oh and apparently Coindesk got in on the FUD attack "vector" too LOL

Monero under scrutiny of the FBI
When they posted = http://www.coindesk.com/fbi-concerned-about-criminal-use-of-private-cryptocurrency-monero/
sr. member
Activity: 254
Merit: 1258
March 17, 2017, 09:39:35 PM
#8
Monero needs all the help they can get to keep competing with dash.
legendary
Activity: 2002
Merit: 1051
ICO? Not even once.
March 17, 2017, 09:35:08 PM
#7
And you are a notorious Monero cult shill so don't pretend LOL

You either seem to have lost your FUD-edge or you have a short attention span or just don't care anymore about the actual topic at hand, only your ego.

Feel free to read back my comment history but I was always against (or at least completely neutral of) both monero and dash.

Even if I were a newbie account, your comment would still be a cheap way of discarding mine instead of arguing.



Naw i couldn't remember really LOL
I was calling you out to get a response Wink
Shit, there is a flood of new accounts here it gets hard to keep track of everyone.  Sad

Added an edit above and you got your response but I'd expect some facts or arguing from you by now.
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