NFTs in the Bitcoin blockchain - Ordinal Theory - page 28.

BlackHatCoiner

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Quote from: n0nce on February 23, 2023, 05:04:58 AM

Exactly, add 30 shitcoins with data storage to the list above and get a little creative, then your data will literally be online forever.

I think we need to define "forever". Nothing lasts forever. For 2-5 years, maybe uploading a file to 30 shitcoins can work, but as their lifespan is around 2 years, I wouldn't bet all of them not disappearing within 5 years. And I don't know lots of shitcoins that are censorship resistant. Actually, I know none; they're shitcoins for a reason.

Quote from: n0nce on February 23, 2023, 05:04:58 AM

Nothing happens, but we should criticize reckless developers that go straight to mainnet and question their competence, instead of praising them as Bitcoin's saviors

Yes, we should. I'm all in for that. Have I mentioned it for the 50th time Ordinals is a dumb idea? I'm just not in favor of coordinating to stop them for doing it, as it would introduce censorship.

NotATether

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Quote from: n0nce on February 23, 2023, 05:04:58 AM

Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on February 22, 2023, 10:44:36 PM

Quote from: n0nce on February 22, 2023, 07:53:52 PM

Keeping documents online forever for free isn't that hard of a task nowadays.

how do you do that exactly?

Google cloud, Microsoft cloud, Apple cloud, Dropbox, post the file to Facebook, Twitter, The Internet Archive, send a copy to every one of your Email contacts, open a few fresh email accounts and send it to yourself, create Torrents, ...
I did not elaborate because the answer seemed (seems) trivial. It is sometimes harder to get stuff off the web than to get it online, actually

None of these really qualify as keeping your documents online forever as any of these things can go down - the cloud, the mail server the social media site, (and torrents don't even store a copy of your files so they don't count at all).

The only way to truly go about it is to host your own website and put the file there, or to run your own email server or to just host the file on IPFS.

n0nce

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Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on February 22, 2023, 10:44:36 PM

Quote from: n0nce on February 22, 2023, 07:53:52 PM

Keeping documents online forever for free isn't that hard of a task nowadays.

how do you do that exactly?

Google cloud, Microsoft cloud, Apple cloud, Dropbox, post the file to Facebook, Twitter, The Internet Archive, send a copy to every one of your Email contacts, open a few fresh email accounts and send it to yourself, create Torrents, ...
I did not elaborate because the answer seemed (seems) trivial. It is sometimes harder to get stuff off the web than to get it online, actually

Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on February 22, 2023, 10:44:36 PM

Quote

Timestamping is harder and actually useful and I agree that using OpenTimestamps is a much better solution than Ordinals. By only saving the hash, it also reduces disk usage and legal issues for node operators.

the problem with just timestamping is that there's no permanent storage for the data that produced the hash. and the only way to have permanent storage is to have it on a blockchain.

The last sentence is wrong, and I do not think it is a problem to just save a hash, either. Quite the contrary.

Quote from: d5000 on February 22, 2023, 11:16:11 PM

Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on February 22, 2023, 10:44:36 PM

the problem with just timestamping is that there's no permanent storage for the data that produced the hash. and the only way to have permanent storage is to have it on a blockchain.

You can store the data on all shitcoins in existence Wink

(mostly for "almost" free, in contrast to Bitcoin's).

You could now argue that Bitcoin could be the only really "permanent" blockchain and all others will eventually die, but I'd disagree here -- the incentive to keep an altcoin running is quite high, so storing it on 20-30 of them (at least 2 of them in the top 30 by marketcap, preferently chosing those with a long life already) and checking each year should be enough.

Exactly, add 30 shitcoins with data storage to the list above and get a little creative, then your data will literally be online forever.

Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on February 23, 2023, 12:04:32 AM

Quote

Yep, there's the problem when you die you can't check, but even Bitcoin could fail eventually. There's no 100% security.

but if bitcoin fails, it fails at a certain point that doesn't mean you won't be able to download all the blocks and get your data.

Bitcoin has failed if there are no nodes online anymore. In that case, there is no place to 'download all the blocks and get your data'.

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on February 23, 2023, 04:59:17 AM

Quote from: n0nce on February 22, 2023, 07:53:52 PM

However, just like you don't immediately deploy untested software to production servers, you shouldn't experiment with Bitcoin as a data storage cloud, on mainnet. Did they have a long testing period on testnet that I missed? Lightning did...

The real question is what happens if they choose to not deploy on testnet first?

Nothing happens, but we should criticize reckless developers that go straight to mainnet and question their competence, instead of praising them as Bitcoin's saviors ^[1].

[1] https://www.coindesk.com/business/2023/02/07/the-ordinals-protocol-has-caused-a-resurgence-in-bitcoin-development/

BlackHatCoiner

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Farewell, Leo

Quote from: n0nce on February 22, 2023, 07:53:52 PM

However, just like you don't immediately deploy untested software to production servers, you shouldn't experiment with Bitcoin as a data storage cloud, on mainnet. Did they have a long testing period on testnet that I missed? Lightning did...

The real question is what happens if they choose to not deploy on testnet first? Conducting experiments in real life requires some standards that need to be followed, like some paper from your institution which certificates that you're capable for experimenting safely, or follow other guidelines and regulations. Conducting experiments on the Bitcoin network is free for all, and it seemingly can't change without introducing censorship.

Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on February 22, 2023, 10:44:36 PM

the problem with just timestamping is that there's no permanent storage for the data that produced the hash. and the only way to have permanent storage is to have it on a blockchain.

Why don't you just use BitTorrent with a financial incentive, as some torrent sites do? You can also use Tor to improve anonymity and resist censorship.

Quote from: garlonicon on February 23, 2023, 01:08:04 AM

Storage-related things can stay on testnet

I think the counter-argument is: but testnets come and go.

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: tromp on February 22, 2023, 07:06:16 AM

Quote from: fillippone on February 22, 2023, 06:41:04 AM

What about using ordinals for legitimate uses? I.e. a simpler and easier notarization of documents inside the mod secure blockchain ever?

I don't see what ordinals offers there beyond what is already provided by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenTimestamps

A more efficient path for utilizing the security that the Bitcoin blockchain offers, not like Ordinals, in which inscribing the data is directly done on the blockchain. It might give a good debate for Bitcoin NFT HODLers that they're actually HODLing "the NFTs", because the data for Ethereum NFTs are generally stored in off-chain storage sites. But it's probably more efficient system.

Quote from: n0nce on February 22, 2023, 07:53:52 PM

Keeping documents online forever for free isn't that hard of a task nowadays.

Nothing is for free. Someone is actually paying for it.

garlonicon

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Quote

However, just like you don't immediately deploy untested software to production servers, you shouldn't experiment with Bitcoin as a data storage cloud, on mainnet. Did they have a long testing period on testnet that I missed? Lightning did...

Storage-related things can stay on testnet, because there is no reason to deploy it to the mainnet. If people want Proof of Work protection, then SPV proofs are sufficient, so a commitment to a testnet transaction, that could be included on mainnet, is enough to cover that case (and it is needed to do that only "every sometimes", just once per N blocks, to commit to the latest block hash, so a single commitment can cover a lot of users).

Also, on testnet, as all coins are worthless, the only thing you can do, is to publicly test things. So, storage-related things are all you can do, and your amount of test coins simply determines, how many data you can push with standard fees. You can use zero satoshis in your transactions, and use all of your coins for fees, and for change, when you don't spend all of them.

Quote

Miners shouldn't follow non-standardness, but pure profit.

Again, it seems that testnet fits better even in that case. The best case is deploying a completely separated chain for NFTs, but if people have to spam existing chains, then still, testnet is a better choice, and there is no reason to switch NFTs from testnet to mainnet, when all tests will pass.

d5000

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Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on February 23, 2023, 12:04:32 AM

such as what altcoins offer almost free data storage? i'm aware of litecoin implementing ordinals but nothing else. ethereum doesn't have ordinals. so that's out.

Data storage != Ordinals. You simply don't need it, you only need a protocol to insert the data in one or several transactions. You could even use Ethereum, which allows a large freedom in scripting, but it would be probably very costly.

Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on February 23, 2023, 12:04:32 AM

after you spend money storing on that many places you probably spent more than you would have to just store it on bitcoin.

Even on a relatively large blockchain like LTC, a mid-resolution JPEG of some dozens of kB shouldn't cost more than a few cents (it's approximately 1 US dollar per MB).

Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on February 23, 2023, 12:04:32 AM

but if bitcoin fails, it fails at a certain point that doesn't mean you won't be able to download all the blocks and get your data.

It's not 100% sure. If Bitcoin really fails then there would be eventually no node left to download (you can perhaps hope for archive.org or such places but that's also not sure, and why don't you store it there then from the start?). And the probability for that to happen is low, but that's also true for other larger blockchains.

Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on February 23, 2023, 12:04:32 AM

why?

why not?

Would be cool for things like articles, short stories or manifiestos, weighing some few kB.

larry_vw_1955

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Quote from: d5000 on February 22, 2023, 11:16:11 PM

You can store the data on all shitcoins in existence Wink

(mostly for "almost" free, in contrast to Bitcoin's).

such as what altcoins offer almost free data storage? i'm aware of litecoin implementing ordinals but nothing else. ethereum doesn't have ordinals. so that's out.

Quote

so storing it on 20-30 of them (at least 2 of them in the top 30 by marketcap, preferently chosing those with a long life already) and checking each year should be enough.

are all the shitcoins nowadays offering ordinals too or something? Shocked

after you spend money storing on that many places you probably spent more than you would have to just store it on bitcoin.

Quote

Yep, there's the problem when you die you can't check, but even Bitcoin could fail eventually. There's no 100% security.

but if bitcoin fails, it fails at a certain point that doesn't mean you won't be able to download all the blocks and get your data.

Quote

I would be quite interested in a protocol where you can combine OpenTimestamps on BTC with "storage on altcoin chains".

why?

d5000

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Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on February 22, 2023, 10:44:36 PM

the problem with just timestamping is that there's no permanent storage for the data that produced the hash. and the only way to have permanent storage is to have it on a blockchain.

You can store the data on all shitcoins in existence Wink

(mostly for "almost" free, in contrast to Bitcoin's).

You could now argue that Bitcoin could be the only really "permanent" blockchain and all others will eventually die, but I'd disagree here -- the incentive to keep an altcoin running is quite high, so storing it on 20-30 of them (at least 2 of them in the top 30 by marketcap, preferently chosing those with a long life already) and checking each year should be enough.

Yep, there's the problem when you die you can't check, but even Bitcoin could fail eventually. There's no 100% security.

I would be quite interested in a protocol where you can combine OpenTimestamps on BTC with "storage on altcoin chains".

larry_vw_1955

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Quote from: n0nce on February 22, 2023, 07:53:52 PM

Keeping documents online forever for free isn't that hard of a task nowadays.

how do you do that exactly?

Quote

Timestamping is harder and actually useful and I agree that using OpenTimestamps is a much better solution than Ordinals. By only saving the hash, it also reduces disk usage and legal issues for node operators.

the problem with just timestamping is that there's no permanent storage for the data that produced the hash. and the only way to have permanent storage is to have it on a blockchain.

n0nce

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on February 22, 2023, 04:59:27 AM

Quote from: n0nce on February 21, 2023, 06:30:49 AM

I agree; that's why I also oppose NFT experiments on the 'world's reserve currency' mainnet chain..

I don't see any experiments. What is currently happening was always possible on a protocol level. People have saved texts, messages, PDFs likewise.

The experiment would be shifting Bitcoin's main use case from A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System to A Decentralized, Free File Sharing Platform.
It was always possible, but it was never attempted, just like most experiments in science. The equipment is there and people come up with ideas they want to test with it.

However, just like you don't immediately deploy untested software to production servers, you shouldn't experiment with Bitcoin as a data storage cloud, on mainnet. Did they have a long testing period on testnet that I missed? Lightning did...

Quote from: fillippone on February 22, 2023, 08:15:50 AM

Quote from: tromp on February 22, 2023, 07:06:16 AM

Quote from: fillippone on February 22, 2023, 06:41:04 AM

What about using ordinals for legitimate uses? I.e. a simpler and easier notarization of documents inside the mod secure blockchain ever?

I don't see what ordinals offers there beyond what is already provided by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenTimestamps

OpenTimes stamps provide a proof of existence of a document at a certain block.

Notarization is exactly that, right? Proof of existence at a certain time. You can then go upload that document to every free cloud storage provider, social network and forum, if you are unable to keep important data backed up on your own hardware. Keeping documents online forever for free isn't that hard of a task nowadays. Timestamping is harder and actually useful and I agree that using OpenTimestamps is a much better solution than Ordinals. By only saving the hash, it also reduces disk usage and legal issues for node operators.

BlackHatCoiner

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Farewell, Leo

Quote from: fillippone on February 22, 2023, 06:41:04 AM

What about using ordinals for legitimate uses? I.e. a simpler and easier notarization of documents inside the mod secure blockchain ever?

That doesn't require to start treating the entire currency as non-fungible.

Quote from: ?? on ??

The reasoning behind this proposal was to prevent excessive blockchain bloat and to encourage the efficient use of Bitcoin's limited block space.

I'm curious to know how much it discourages after all. You can still send it to a miner if you really want it. If you can't send it to a miner, you can create multiple OP_RETURN transactions.

Quote from: fillippone on February 22, 2023, 08:15:50 AM

So you have to worry about keeping a copy to of the data alive.

And with Ordinals, you have to worry that everybody has a copy of that data. Tongue

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Quote from: tromp on February 22, 2023, 07:06:16 AM

Quote from: fillippone on February 22, 2023, 06:41:04 AM

What about using ordinals for legitimate uses? I.e. a simpler and easier notarization of documents inside the mod secure blockchain ever?

I don't see what ordinals offers there beyond what is already provided by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenTimestamps

OpenTimes stamps provide a proof of existence of a document at a certain block. But they secure only the SHA of the document, not the document itself. So you have to worry about keeping a copy to of the data alive.
Ordinals have a more secure approach, as the data itself is stored in the bitcoin blockchain.

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Quote from: fillippone on February 22, 2023, 06:41:04 AM

What about using ordinals for legitimate uses? I.e. a simpler and easier notarization of documents inside the mod secure blockchain ever?

I don't see what ordinals offers there beyond what is already provided by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenTimestamps

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on February 22, 2023, 04:59:27 AM

Quote from: Carlton Banks on February 21, 2023, 07:27:40 PM

actual (i.e. Ethereum based) NFTs already have a bad reputation for being the ultimate cryptocurrency scam, so I don't see how this trend won't just burn itself out pretty quick

Greater fool's theory. Some poor guy will acquire the "rarest" satoshis, but with little to zero value because nobody will buy that nonsense later on.

What about using ordinals for legitimate uses? I.e. a simpler and easier notarization of documents inside the mod secure blockchain ever?

BlackHatCoiner

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Farewell, Leo

Quote from: n0nce on February 21, 2023, 06:30:49 AM

I agree; that's why I also oppose NFT experiments on the 'world's reserve currency' mainnet chain..

I don't see any experiments. What is currently happening was always possible on a protocol level. People have saved texts, messages, PDFs likewise.

Quote from: n0nce on February 21, 2023, 06:30:49 AM

Colored coins had no data embedded into them.

But they do make use of OP_RETURN, which is metadata.

Quote from: Carlton Banks on February 21, 2023, 07:27:40 PM

actual (i.e. Ethereum based) NFTs already have a bad reputation for being the ultimate cryptocurrency scam, so I don't see how this trend won't just burn itself out pretty quick

Greater fool's theory. Some poor guy will acquire the "rarest" satoshis, but with little to zero value because nobody will buy that nonsense later on.

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: Carlton Banks on February 21, 2023, 07:27:40 PM

"latest hype" again? Roll Eyes

actual (i.e. Ethereum based) NFTs already have a bad reputation for being the ultimate cryptocurrency scam, so I don't see how this trend won't just burn itself out pretty quick

NFTs will come and go, but what's truly always there is an attack vector ready to be activated. If all of a sudden a "very popular" NFT in the Bitcoin blockchain became so in demand, and it kept fees constantly high by those over-paying NFT users. The attackers are now incentivized to spam and congest the network by simply creating a market for their dick pics and fart sounds, forever stored in full nodes.

Carlton Banks

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"latest hype" again? Roll Eyes

actual (i.e. Ethereum based) NFTs already have a bad reputation for being the ultimate cryptocurrency scam, so I don't see how this trend won't just burn itself out pretty quick

ABCbits

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Quote from: n0nce on February 20, 2023, 05:52:08 PM

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on February 20, 2023, 04:17:07 AM

Quote from: n0nce on February 19, 2023, 06:00:01 PM

Also: why should I commit a crime for someone else just because they pay me?

That's not a moral concern, but a legal. And I'm still curious how you can prevent the inclusion of illegal content without preventing the inclusion of any content that is valid but just non-standard.

To be honest, switching to scriptless or a heavily restricted scripting language, seems unrealistic for Bitcoin. So I'm not sure how to implement it; just saying that it is technically possible, because others are already doing it.

It's definitely unrealistic when you consider backward compatibility and notable usage which rely on script (such as LN and sidechain). As for implementation, AFAIK it should be possible by creating new standard (with more strict scripting) which use SegWit version 2 (version 0 refer to "default" SegWit and version 1 refer to Taproot) where it's address use prefix bc1z.

Quote from: n0nce on February 20, 2023, 05:52:08 PM

Quote from: ABCbits on February 20, 2023, 04:48:18 AM

My point is there are far less people willing do that. As for protection against such attack, one possible option is dynamic blocksize and neutral fee which implemented on Monero[1]. Another option is modifying behavior on old version of Bitcoin-Qt which determine free transaction based on coin age, expect it's implemented on protocol level.

[1] https://monero.stackexchange.com/a/4567
[2] https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Miner_fees#Priority_transactions

That's true. So attacking Bitcoin through NFTs is much more probable and much riskier than through the attack I presented. Which makes it much more important to protect against it...? Or not?

Hard to say. But at least, it's an attack which should be prevented when you believe Bitcoin should be either mainly/mostly/only used as currency or payment method.

Quote from: fillippone on February 21, 2023, 06:22:48 AM

I definetly want to play with this.
I have some basi questions like: is there an official, or rather a de facto marketplace for ordinals?
If I wan tot buy an NFT on the ETH blockchain, I go to opensea.io: is there an equivalent market for the bitcoin blockchain?

One method i know is use wrapped Bitcoin and buy Ordinals NFT on opensea.io.

n0nce

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on February 21, 2023, 05:02:24 AM

Quote from: n0nce on February 20, 2023, 05:52:08 PM

To be honest, switching to scriptless or a heavily restricted scripting language, seems unrealistic for Bitcoin.

Removing Script from Bitcoin is like redoing Bitcoin. It's a matter of tradeoffs from that point on. Would a heavily restricted language do more good than bad? I don't know, I only know that you don't do such experiments in a world's reserve currency.

I agree; that's why I also oppose NFT experiments on the 'world's reserve currency' mainnet chain.. Tongue

Tough question, how to solve this. Easiest (suggested by some here) would be to just keep silent, hope Ordinals / Bitcoin NFTs won't have long-term success and pretend it has never happened and we are not storing and distributing people's data (potentially classified or otherwise illegal) on our nodes.

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on February 21, 2023, 05:02:24 AM

I'm curious how this wasn't an issue before in colored coins.

Colored coins had no data embedded into them.

Topic: NFTs in the Bitcoin blockchain - Ordinal Theory - page 28. (Read 9515 times)