Topic: No Chargebacks; All Transactions Final: Won't Fly. (Read 3634 times)

+1∞

i dont know why my post got deleted, but i 1∞ agree

+100 ( don't know how to ascii input an infinite loop )

The idea of chargebacks, are purely a profit center for banks, that penalizes all merchants. Most merchants will gladly give you a refund, when a refund is merited.  Unlike your CC , there is no "recurring" draw from a BTC address, therefore the onus is on the BTC holder to make smart decisions.

Escrow services should thrive, and people should relish the overall savings to be had, when Transaction Fees and Conversion fees are much fairer then overall services rendered with traditional card based transactions.

If you wanted to be a BTC Bank , you'd really be nothing more then an escrow service. Settlement delays are settlement delays.

it's already flying, so far there isn't a problem with people wanting to spend btc, the problem is that people find it too hard to get btc.

If you send somebody money (whether it be bitcoins or cash), and they fail to uphold their end of the deal, can't you settle with them in a court of law? Isn't that what the courts are there for?

Or u can do a 2-step transaction as described in my link above.

im not saying that third parties are needed for every transaction.. but if you want a guaranteed refund policy then you have to trust someone. and if you cant trust the retailer direct to send your coin back if things go wrong (current situation) then having a middle man would be it. and as i said this is not for storing your whole wallet, but for voluntary amounts, just for convenience. much like escrows.

if your proposing to have code in the blockchain. where if you send command: Deliveryfailed=True; then the blockchain will automatically create a transaction on the retailers side to send the coin back without their choice. then this is even worse then paypals chargeback policy.. because everyone would be trying to claim refunds just by sending a command.

if you want a refund then the retailer would have to be trusted. (which is what everyone should be doing now, only dealing with trusted people) or using an escrow service/middleman

- Customer wants their money back? Give it back if you agree.
- You don't agree? Contact a third party to settle the case.
- The merchant is dishonest? Ever heard of ratings/reviews?

Escrow.

The free market will also find other solutions.  No need for bankers or politicians to intervene.  Their solutions are too costly.  Solutions don't appear overnight, they evolve over time.

Thanks everyone.  Just wanted to open a discussion on it (apparently, again).

Let me play devils advocate here, and respond as I would see a "Regulator" responding to your comments.  

I would expect a regulator to say the following:


Reason why invalid:  Bitcoin's ultimate evolution is the full replacement of fiat.  It needs to be prepared for that, now, even if there are other choices. It will never get there if there are *zero* consumer protections in place for it.  This isn't a valid response.


Reason why invalid:  Cash is not used in online purchases, so comparing this to an in-person hand to hand exchange of cash is an invalid response to this issue. Except in rare cases where wires are required to pay, which is basically:  Almost never.  This needs to be compared to visa and mastercard because visa and mastercard are exactly what Bitcoin is supposed to replace.  It never will, if it has zero consumer protections.


Reason why invalid:  Human history also didn't child labor laws.  Or planes.  Or condoms.  Invalid response.


Reason why invalid:  I requsted that you tell me what the solution was.


Reason why invalid:  Granted, but this is not a solution, unless there was a worldwide database of easily retrievable merchant reviews that everyone on earth had access to.  Since there isn't, this isn't a solution.  Plenty of shop owners I know who operate under the reputation radar.  The world isn't that connected yet.


Finally, a valid response.  What is the change being implemented, and when will it be implemented?  
I hope folks in the BTC development realm are aware that this is going to be the biggest issue, and its coming very soon.  It needs to be tackled before its even raised as an issue.


Thank you.  This also addresses the original concern.

This requires trust to a 3rd party. No, thx.

bitcoin peer-to peer transactions is like cash in the hand

if you want refund and protection then a proper corporation EG bitpay/bips.me (not a teenage basement dweller) will offer a 'pocket money service" app where you can deposit say $100 of coin and know that you can instant spend in retail shops like starbucks and use the service to 'preconfirm' coins and use them to request refunds if proof is given.

Both "All transactions final" and "Chargebacks allowed" are bad. The best way is somewhere in the middle.

Bitcoin is a protocol.  If you want to build a traditional online bank or payment service that does chargebacks on top of it, nothing is stopping you. If you want to be your own bank and not worry about chargebacks, you can do that too.

Discussion over.

I think that this fee (2-3%) that you talk about is realistic now, where the majority of the customers for an online retailer are using (credit) cards.

If a large proportion of these users started to move to bitcoin, this fee would have to be increased to compensate for the lower volumes using card (which would also co-inside with presumably a higher fraudulent:honest ratio of transactions, as it woudl be harder to fradulently claim a chargeback with the other payment method).

This might further incentivise Bitcoin as a cheaper payment method...

Maybe people using bitcoin will learn them that things that are too good to be true most likely are. Getting scammed has nothing to do with the currency, it has all got to do with you falling for it in the first place

Bitcoin puts stress on shops to build up and keep good reputation and credibility. Instead of having to put trust with random anonymous shoppers, who tend to screw you over bigtime (I feel ya, doof).

I think it's a good thing for everyone. Except for fraudulent customers.

Paypal, credit card, online banking, it's all royally fucked up.

Btw here in the Netherlands, the most popular way to pay online is "iDeal", some soft of instant payment thing using online banking. It's irreversible, as a customer you can't chargeback or cancel it. Did I mention it was the most popular payment method, much more so than credit cards?

Heres my story I've said a few times.

Ebay -> Sent things via courier -> Recipient signs -> Recipient then claims they didn't receive it -> PayPal Charges ME -> Puts Bank Account in over draft -> Bank charges me.


So.... Im down on ebay fees, paypal fees, paypal charge back, my item is gone and I've been fucked over by the bank.

Fuck ebay.  Fuck paypal.

There is also reputation. With the internet, everyone can find out how trustworthy a company is. I wired money to Bitstamp to buy btc because the forums considered it to be trustworthy.

In a libertarian/anarchist economy, reputation is an extremely valuable resource.

Another aspect of bitcoin, is that it may mature into the low-level payment system for the planet, with a higher-level payment system (which has chargebacks etc) layered on top by financial institutions.  How does this work ?

Well TCP/IP , the protocol that runs the Internet delivers packets with a guarantee of delivery.  It's implemented by TCP layered on top of IP which delivers packets with no such guarantee.  It's technically hard to jump to the second layer in one go, much easier, more robust and flexible to build IP first, then add the TCP to produce a reliable system.

The real world of banking has a payment system.  In the UK it's mediated by the clearing banks.  It is not transactional, and has some pretty serious flaws in it (which the banks largely deny).  Bitcoin could be a feasible replacement for such a service.

This is not to say that bitcoin cannot do the higher-level work to, but at the bedrock of finance, a non-reversible, transactional system is essential.

If you don't want to be defrauded, why not use escrowing?

Better still, with Bitcoin you can do a no third party two-signature escrow, which means no one can withdraw the money without the consent of both parties, or a 2 of 3 one with a trusted party, which is in itself a revolutionary technology.  Have you looked into that?