Topic: No Chargebacks; All Transactions Final: Won't Fly. - page 2. (Read 3625 times)
Short answer: We're going to have consumer protection, and it won't require altering the Bitcoin protocol to include chargebacks.
to the OP.... for the greater part of humanity ... there has never been any such thing as chargeback or 'consumer protection' as you say. It wasnt till recent systems like visa / mc / paypal came into existence that offered this service. In further by doing so, theyve created a system that encourages lousy spending of ones ability to go into debt right from the get go.
In essence the only advantage visa / pp / chargebacks has given people, is the ability to become completely lazy, brain dead, irresponsible consumers who rely on 'others' to fix their problems.
So, in reality, even if people see this as a downfall of bitcoin .. so be it... bitcoin has uses for savers & responsible consumers ... meaning there will still be areas bitcoin will thrive.
In essence the only advantage visa / pp / chargebacks has given people, is the ability to become completely lazy, brain dead, irresponsible consumers who rely on 'others' to fix their problems.
So, in reality, even if people see this as a downfall of bitcoin .. so be it... bitcoin has uses for savers & responsible consumers ... meaning there will still be areas bitcoin will thrive.
Leave it to the customer to decide, give a certain price for bitcoin, and 2-3% more for credit card. Let the customer choose whether they want the lower price and no chargeback, or if they want to pay the fee for that possibility. Its basically buying insurance on your purchase.
Which exactly is the law and regulation that currently is in place related to chargebacks? As I understand it is currently only available for credit card customers but not on cash deals. The fact that it does not exist for cash customers makes me doubt that there exists any regulation regarding this situation that could apply to bitcoins.
I do not live in US but I know for almost 99% fact that there exists no laws in my country related to chargebacks and they are just a service that credit card companies are offering all by themselves as a service because they WANT to offer them to customers.
There are millions of other laws but in all the cases mandated by law I must contact the merchant directly to work out the situation and those laws would be no problem to apply to bitcoin based deals. The merchant just sends bitcoins back to customer just like the merchant gives cash back if the customer has sufficiently strong case against the merchant to present, no problem for bitcoins. Or the customer could sue the merchant and then the court orders the merchant to send coins to customer, just like cash.
However you are right in the sense that the "all sales are final" doctrine is not at all compatible with laws in place in here. However that is a totally separate issue from automatic chargebacks.
I do not live in US but I know for almost 99% fact that there exists no laws in my country related to chargebacks and they are just a service that credit card companies are offering all by themselves as a service because they WANT to offer them to customers.
There are millions of other laws but in all the cases mandated by law I must contact the merchant directly to work out the situation and those laws would be no problem to apply to bitcoin based deals. The merchant just sends bitcoins back to customer just like the merchant gives cash back if the customer has sufficiently strong case against the merchant to present, no problem for bitcoins. Or the customer could sue the merchant and then the court orders the merchant to send coins to customer, just like cash.
However you are right in the sense that the "all sales are final" doctrine is not at all compatible with laws in place in here. However that is a totally separate issue from automatic chargebacks.
A lot of places dont accept credit cards for this very reason. Cash Only.
In the future Im guessing they will be Bitcoin and Cash only.
In the future Im guessing they will be Bitcoin and Cash only.
Non issue: Don't want to use bitcoin? Just use your credit card, Paypal, etc.
Bitcoin is no different than cash (or wire transfer, as noted above) with regard to settlement finality.
Bitcoin is no different than cash (or wire transfer, as noted above) with regard to settlement finality.
I own a business in the US that does about 60% of sales outside the US. Avg. ticket price of items around $5,000. I ONLY accept bank wire as transfer on international orders for my protection. Bank transfer is 99% final with nearly zero chance for the customer to reverse the charge short of filing a lawsuit. I see BTC as working in the same manner. I'd gladly take BTC over a bank wire as currently I have to pay about $35 per incoming wire. So... for me, I see no difference with regard to chargebacks.
Suppose you as a merchant choose to use Coinbase (or BitPay) instead of Visa or MC. You (the merchant) have an account with Coinbase, which controls your BTC wallet. The consumer calls Coinbase (instead of Visa/MC) and claims they never received your product. Coinbase agrees and sends the proper amount in BTC from your account to the customer.
How about that?
How about that?
I believe there is already a solution and your post is moot.
Chargebacks are not an inherent feature of fiat currencies. Rather, chargebacks are a feature provided by services like Visa and PayPal. There's no chargebacks with cash. There's no reason that payment processors or credit cards can be made for bitcoin and offer chargebacks, it just wont happen on the blockchain.
Chargebacks are not an inherent feature of fiat currencies. Rather, chargebacks are a feature provided by services like Visa and PayPal. There's no chargebacks with cash. There's no reason that payment processors or credit cards can be made for bitcoin and offer chargebacks, it just wont happen on the blockchain.
How do you do a chargeback on cash? Bitcoin closest equivelent is cash not VISA.
How exactly would you force a chargeback system on cash? Simple answer is you can't. This doesn't mean that someday VISA couldn't operate on top of the Bitcoin network. Stealing your money when customers lie about not receiving a product. You can opt in to such a system. I am 100% sure they will arrive eventually but VISA can't make cash tx irreversible. They never tried. Instead they built a higher level network ON TOP OF the existing cash banking network.
If you want chargebacks that roadmap is the only way possible in a cryptocurrency.
How exactly would you force a chargeback system on cash? Simple answer is you can't. This doesn't mean that someday VISA couldn't operate on top of the Bitcoin network. Stealing your money when customers lie about not receiving a product. You can opt in to such a system. I am 100% sure they will arrive eventually but VISA can't make cash tx irreversible. They never tried. Instead they built a higher level network ON TOP OF the existing cash banking network.
If you want chargebacks that roadmap is the only way possible in a cryptocurrency.
This is a non-issue, already been discussed.
I posted this on the Bitcoin Foundation Forums tonight. Figured I'd post it here too, to get more feedback.
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Consumer protection is a huge issue in the world of merchants processing payments. I am a merchant with about 30,000 customers. Thankfully my mother raised me right, and I never seek to defraud a customer. But I do have disagreements with customers. Often. Bitcoin in its current state, rendering consumers with no recourse in a dispute, puts consumers at risk. I hate chargebacks. The system in place by Visa and Mastercard is appalling, offensive, and downright unethical. The burden of proof is never put on the customer, even though they are the ones making the claim, and nothing I do to dispute a chargeback matters. The money is forceably removed from my bank account, on their whim, without telling me, and without my permission. Yet still, there is the other side of the coin, and despite seeing this issue raised several times, nobody seems to address it.
Bitcoin puts all the power in the merchant's hands. Obviously that can be a bad thing. More importantly, nobody is going to allow it.
Sometimes customers deserve to get their money back: Yes, customers can contact me directly to request a refund. But what if I disagree with them? What if the merchant is dishonest? There are plenty of mom and pop shops out there who don't answer to anyone. What recourse does the consumer have?
"All transactions are final" is short-sighted, and its going to come back to bite Bitcoin in the rump. Soon. Regulators will be the first to ask this question. They may even ask it on Monday. I believe this is Bitcoins biggest weakness. As much *positive* as there is about Bitcoin, if we want to send consumers running the other direction, tell them they're toast if they ever need to get their money back. Do we want to alienate the consumer public? This issue is the only thing about Bitcoin that gives me pause. More importantly: If we don't think the banks, the media, and those who stand to lose the most aren't going to jump all over this *very* issue, then we are sadly mistaken. Zero consumer protections is not acceptable to anyone with a rational mind. This topic needs to be thought about, and a solution needs to be provided.
Disclaimer: if there is already a solution, please feel free to make my entire post moot, and correct me with it.
Kevin
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Consumer protection is a huge issue in the world of merchants processing payments. I am a merchant with about 30,000 customers. Thankfully my mother raised me right, and I never seek to defraud a customer. But I do have disagreements with customers. Often. Bitcoin in its current state, rendering consumers with no recourse in a dispute, puts consumers at risk. I hate chargebacks. The system in place by Visa and Mastercard is appalling, offensive, and downright unethical. The burden of proof is never put on the customer, even though they are the ones making the claim, and nothing I do to dispute a chargeback matters. The money is forceably removed from my bank account, on their whim, without telling me, and without my permission. Yet still, there is the other side of the coin, and despite seeing this issue raised several times, nobody seems to address it.
Bitcoin puts all the power in the merchant's hands. Obviously that can be a bad thing. More importantly, nobody is going to allow it.
Sometimes customers deserve to get their money back: Yes, customers can contact me directly to request a refund. But what if I disagree with them? What if the merchant is dishonest? There are plenty of mom and pop shops out there who don't answer to anyone. What recourse does the consumer have?
"All transactions are final" is short-sighted, and its going to come back to bite Bitcoin in the rump. Soon. Regulators will be the first to ask this question. They may even ask it on Monday. I believe this is Bitcoins biggest weakness. As much *positive* as there is about Bitcoin, if we want to send consumers running the other direction, tell them they're toast if they ever need to get their money back. Do we want to alienate the consumer public? This issue is the only thing about Bitcoin that gives me pause. More importantly: If we don't think the banks, the media, and those who stand to lose the most aren't going to jump all over this *very* issue, then we are sadly mistaken. Zero consumer protections is not acceptable to anyone with a rational mind. This topic needs to be thought about, and a solution needs to be provided.
Disclaimer: if there is already a solution, please feel free to make my entire post moot, and correct me with it.
Kevin
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