Topic: NO PROOF MtGox is insolvent - Document possibly a Hoax? - STOP THE FUD! - page 2. (Read 7124 times)

Yeah, I agree. People don't realise they're part of the problem when they spread this FUD without any concrete evidence. They complain about the price falling, but it wouldn't fall if it wasn't for the FUD spreaders and panic sellers.


They very well might become insolvent / bankrupt, but speculating on this and what really happened based on little evidence or hunches isn't helping.

This is the very essence of it. Had it been all negative fud being spread around I could to some degree have bought it. But rather it has been a consistent cycle of spreading fear/hope via various channels and that just look to me like someone moving the market at their own accord taking advantage of MTgox unwillingness/inability to communicate (not exactly the first time they act like a muted wall) It is quite likely that they have been gagged by their lawyers (especially if their legal council is from Japan, you don't admit failures over there in the corporate world unless it's unavoidable).

Anyone trading on mysterious documents and rumors is a fool and will soon be parted from their money. Honestly people, a guy named "two-bit idiot" produces a leaked internal draft that looks like a 3rd. grader made it, and it makes the NY Times! There are so many things wrong with this.

• Who was it written for? It seems to be an internal document, but speaks to an external audience.
• It does not appear to me (untrained) to be consistent with the known writing of Mark K., so who wrote it?
  
• Why is it denominated in a foreign currency?
• Why is there a page that looks like a balance sheet but is completely redacted? Why include it?
  
  I could go on.  Oh well, your fear is someone's gain.

sadly, the media didn't call the USD a fraud or ponzi scheme during the financial crisis in 2008, even after Lehman collapsed, the underlying root cause, money based on debt, was not brought up  

^ This! ^

+450 000 0000

 Bitcoin regulation and destruction is coming. I don't care what you've heard about "5 stages of grief" or buy on the low or whatever. Sure it might go down and then its probably going to spike up and we might see 10 000$ again in 6 months. But i am not ever trusting the community if this doesnt get fixed.

Despite what the landing page may say, subdomains are never available for anyone to take.  You don't register a subdomain with a registrar, you simply make DNS pointers to the webhost and since only the main domain registrant can legitimately create DNS entries for that domain and all subdomains they are the ones who control where the subdomain lands.  

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/25/bitcoin-mtgox-ceo-idUSL1N0LU12G20140225

Seems he hasn't jumped out a window at least.

Does MtGox look professional to you? If not, why do you expect their document professional?

The offices are empty and the CEO is no where to be found.

That's not really how a solvent company acts.

http://news.yahoo.com/bitcoin-exchange-mt-gox-39-website-down-053727771--sector.html

If there is one thing that speaks against the document more than anything else it's the extreme amount of BTC lost that is claimed. I highly doubt that gox had that in total deposits these days unless they had A LOT of unused btc sitting around in old accounts.

I can't remember if gox disclosed how many coins they had in deposits back in 2011 when they got hacked, but iirc people were throwing 4-600k figures around on the high end and that was when BTC was 10% of current value and gox had 95%+ of the exchange market.

I do however think that they could potentially have lost 1/10th of the stated value, the withdraw queue was pushing above 70k I think towards the end with around 10% of transactions making it. Even this is a extreme case however since it only takes 1 double spent input to make a transaction invalid and most gox withdraws could contain 5+ even at low amounts.

Also if they had 740k in total deposits, the withdraw queue before they halted withdraws would have been A LOT bigger. You really think only 10% of total deposits tried to get out during the last week of withdraws? The numbers simply does not check out.

Did nobody notice that the document is written the same way (by a German) as the mtgoxtakeover website?

I disagree. It is regulations fault that there are so few exchanges. It is regulations fault that BTC cannot freely be traded for cash or cash deposits, which would be the absolutely safest method.

Without regulations there would be bitcoin trader cafes everywhere, with security in place and cash checking machines, maybe even in banks? The safest trading is  p2p cash for btc, in a trusted environment.

Regulations are the reason why your bank is not offering BTC as a foreign currency or a commodity, right via online banking.

It is 100% the fault of regulators what is happening here, and 100% their intention.

The Mt. Gox homepage was not loading, although no error message appeared. Its source code contained a line saying, "put announce for mtgox acq here."  That's from yahoo news.  I wonder if that means Gox is being acquired?

Also, I think Gox SHOULD be sued.  That will help matters because it will put everything in the open.  It will also lend credibility, however slim, to Bitcoin because you can get legal redress if someone steals your coins.

+1000

The very fact that they used such wording in the first place indicates they had good reason to believe they were insolvent. The fact they removed it could simply be a move to minimize panic.

It does not prove it, but it certainly implies it, very strongly.

It tells us that the document in question was correct about its prediction that Mt. Gox would attempt to rebrand themselves as "Gox" and that very much lends to the credibility of the document.

Like I said, it could have been created by someone with inside knowledge about Mt. Gox, and they used that knowledge about the rebranding and other things to make the document seem legit, whilst at the same time forging the numbers to create a panic.

I totally agree with you IF this is all true.

The point I am making is I think we are already doing a lot of the damage described above even if it all turns out to not be true. The journalists are already feverishly writing the "I told you so" articles as we speak, I am sure.

The document may be real but I sure don't believe the figures in it. Where did all the fiat go? Did they spend it to buy BTC at $1,000 just to lose the BTC later?

They're incompetent but were they really that incompetent? If they claim something like this it smells like deliberate fraud.

The alleged internal mtgox document reads very real to me.  If it's a hoax, they did a great job (only really weird part was the picture of Mark under Part 2 - why have it at all and on some weird letter form? - an internal memo would just say what the letter would entail?)

The document discusses many things I and others on here believed to be the case and possible solutions:

1.  Acknowledges that the gox fiasco is not just about gox but that it will affect bitcoin's adoption going forward in a massive way.  The key is making the bitcoin customers whole for the sake of bitcoin itself.

2.  Requires Mark to resign.

3.  Someone (or a group of people) PURCHASE gox after factoring liabilities (but didn't realize the liabilities were so enormous).  It is a valuable exchange and I think most people would trust Gox if they knew it was being run by completely new management.  Someone with a high profile and trust must take over gox (like Andreas or someone similar), even if they don't want to right now.  I believe customers will stay if there is proof of bitcoins to back all withdrawals - not sure if that is possible though (see #4)

4.  PART OF MAKING GOX CUSTOMERS WHOLE IS FOR CERTAIN WHALES TO GIVE (OR LOAN WITH THE UNDERSTANDING THAT SOME OR ALL LOANED BITCOIN MAY BE LOST) SOME OF THEIR MASSIVE BITCOIN HOLDINGS TO GOX AFTER MARK IS GONE WITH THE UNDERSTANDING THAT IT IS ONLY FOR MAKING CUSTOMERS WHOLE, ALL OF WHICH IS FOR THE CAUSE OF BITCOIN.  (again, didn't realize the number of bitcoins short was so huge, and was thinking about very early adopters who may possibly own massive amounts of bitcoin).

Cannot emphasize enough how huge this is for bitcoin adoption going forward.  Those who simply want gox to die are missing the big picture.  If gox customers are ultimately cheated, there will be a sell-off, but it probably won't be that big as some of this is already factored in.  Many in the public as well as companies, hell even the media, were starting to talk about bitcoin in a positive way.  They will turn and run in a heartbeat - they haven't yet bc technically no one has yet been cheated - they and we are all waiting to see what happens.  All the "I told you bitcoin was dangerous (or a fraud)" will be out in full force.  Media will be brutal and gov regulation will come down like a hammer.  Bitcoin's adoption will stop cold in its tracks, and the public, which was always worried about security, will say "no thanks, I don't need this product that badly"  and bitcoin will unfortunately grind down slowly to nothing for many many years to come

 

The very fact that they removed the word insolvent indicates they have no solid evidence that they are insolvent either.


That, to me, does not automatically imply they are insolvent. Companies get acquired all the time while still solvent.


Not disputing that but buying a new domain and re-branding also does not tell us anything other than the fact they are re-branding.


Point taken, did not realise it was marked as a draft.

However, surely the document is trustworthy or it is not. I don't see how it could be a legitimate document with numbers that cannot be trusted.