Topic: "Not your keys, Not your coins" is not enough - page 5. (Read 1016 times)

That's why I wrote :


I am not talking about the fact of storing your BTC only, I am more talking about the place where you exchange it

Yes, it is good for every Bitcoin enthusiast to be more concerned about their privacy but it's not yet the time that people will stop using the CEX because I don't think there yet a big DEX that provides cryptocurrency trading into all local currencies (or does the Bisq exchange do that?) and this is the reason why someone like myself still uses CEX if there a DEX that does this in a secure manner we can then blame people that make use of CEX.

I guess some of us are hypocritical users - I mean they talk about privacy but they still use centralized exchanges. Of course -  it's good when they really believe they can protect their financial privacy properly without getting involved in anything on a centralized exchange or any centralized platform.

But each of us is a citizen who is basically still subject to the laws and rules of the government. We can protect our privacy - but are you forever evading taxes on your assets or wealth? Of course - this is a question I'm always thinking about when we actually prevent the government from knowing how much wealth we have on bitcoin.

This is one of the craziest threads I've ever read. We do not compile KYC exactly for the reason that the nature of Bitcoin is totally opposed to an identity verification.  Even if the blockchain is transparent, it remains difficult to identify an identity with an address, at least one that does not do an excellent job of chain analysis.  Bitcoin is born to make our financial life free and not persecuted by the governments.  Even if your request is always valid and there is no change of opinion, it's because you're looking Bitcoin at it from the wrong side.

You seem to be expressing frustration with the repetition of certain information. It is indeed unnecessary to mention centralized exchanges separately when discussing the importance of holding your own keys and funds. Since centralized exchanges do not provide you with control over your private keys, it is implied that they fall under the same category as custodial wallets.

In summary, if you are not in possession of your private keys, it is advisable not to store your funds in that particular service, be it a centralized exchange or a custodial wallet. It is worth noting to add with this sentence about hardware wallet that forum users commonly recommend the use it, as this practice is widely recognized and established.

There are centralized exchanges that kyc isn't mandatory, but they will make it mandatory someday just as KuCoin has recently done, so if you want to use no-kyc centralized exchanges to avoid kyc, you should know that soon you'll be mandated to provide it.

Take note that if you use centralized exchanges and make a mistake that costs you your funds, the exchange is not going to refund them to you, there are people who use centralized exchages because they wrongly think their money is 'insured' in them, if you or the exchange is hacked, the money you stored in there is lost.

You have made a great post dear op, your suggestions of Dexs have convinced me to try them as I was not very fond of Dexs due to many reasons. So, now I will try to at least try them because you are also a ranked member of this platform and I think this is enough for me to trust your suggestions.

Thanks for it and I totally agreed with your point but many used to say the same statement "Not your keys, not your wallet" which I think is wrong, but to some extent only, and I have had some discussion on this issue here before a few days ago and I came to a point that, whatever you do, best practice is to remain as much self custodial as possible because in crypto we should not trust anyone with our valuable assets.

And you mentioned the reason of why most people trust CEXS over DEXs due to UI. What i think is they trust CEXs due to their traditional mindset of depending on others so that they could blame someone for a mistake they do not want to accept. And this nature will also change once the total decentralization of BTC will be adopted by adopting the usage of DEXs. well amid of these DEXs you have mentioned there are many other options available to use CEXs without KYC which i think is also a cool alternative way to make people at least think about it.

Yes this has been the Tag line ever since now and would love to follow it always after having few bad experiences with the exchanger. The first incidence was during the Zerodha collapse in India when I had most of the funds on zerodha. The problem started when Zerodha grew very big in very short period of time. They had this charm of attracting peeps on their platform with easy to use exchange facility, cheap rates of fees, faster transaction etc. However it was deceiving factor to get into it. That’s how I lost the touch with wallets which are non custodial. But after it collapsed most of the funds were ceased and were locked for very long time until banks unlocked them for us. Since then I’m not trusting any exchanger at all.

You just explained a nice point. And I also believe that in near future CEX exchanges will be avoided and users will only trust and use DEX exchanges. Already people are too much afraid of these CEX exchanges and about it's security and that's why DEX exchanges are having now higher volumes day by day. Many users are victim of CEX exchanges like MT Gox , FTX, IDAX and many more so people have fear about CEXs but they don't have another perfect option. But days changed and people are being much aware about their security.

Most of the traders choose CEX exchanges Because:

1. Interface and Features: It has user-friendly interface and trading features. CEX has a wide range of trading pairs, higher liquidity and but DEX has lower liquidity because they rely on the users to provide liquidity.

2. Transection time: In terms of transection times in many cases DEXs are lower than CEXs exchanges. But in terms of Security and anonymity undoubtedly DEX should be preferred.

3. Leverage Trading: CEX offers almost 200× leverage trading that is a very prominent feature of CEXs. Many market Analysts are making huge money by using high leverage so traders oftenly like high leverage option though it's much risky for everyone specially for beginners.

So in conclusion DEX exchanges should have more features added and should be a perfect trading platform so that traders can trade with full security. Because Bitcoin isn't only a cryptocurrency but also an asset. And I believe it will be implemented soon and DEXs will be more upgraded for the Traders. That time the era of CEXs will be ended.

iwantmyhomepaidwithbtc2, there is always a risk for anything that seems fine right now, including decentralized exchanges. We should just encourage everyone to change their minds about centralized exchanges, but maybe not force them to have the same mindset we want. In the end it is up to the individual trader and investor, but this thread can send the message that every bitcoin user will be exposed to risks regardless of whether they use a centralized or decentralized exchange.

So far I'm not a bitcoin maximalist who really cares about privacy. I still use banks, I still use centralized exchanges, and it's all because of my needs as a trader and investor. For me it's simple, we all have different desires in using bitcoin and we will also differ in our risk tolerance. We are all supporters of bitcoin, helping it grow and making it more useful as a currency and valued asset, even if we are not one of those who are strictly privacy advocates.

Non-exhaustive list:

-Risk of exit scams
-Risk of resale of personal data = possible identity theft
-Risk of hacking the platform and stealing your banking and personal data, as mentioned above.
-Risk of your funds being seized
-Risk of your funds being frozen and of having to provide documents you don't even have to recover them
-The CEX can become bankrupt
-CEX work hand in hand with the tax authorities, which doesn't help everyone
-They regularly block buying and selling when the price of BTC fluctuates sharply, which is annoying.
-They centralize BTC, which was created to be totally decentralized.

Mt Gox, FTX, and all the other examples mentioned in my first message + those present in the link I put to Gazeta's topic are enough to illustrate all this.

The problem we need to realize is that there is no clear control over these company. With blockchain, everyone in the network has the power to monitor the money going in and out. But the exchange is somehow still withdrawing or transferring money to a subsidiary company.

The lack of control is clearly the fatal weakness of cryptocurrencies. Founder Luna can immediately take off and fly away, carrying huge amounts of money. A coin is created that is accepted by everyone, but there is no one to guarantee that the coin will circulate.

The balancing problem of keeping the community under control with the trust of money has never been easy. To put it bluntly, the future could be the fatal weakness of cryptocurrencies.

Life is not private but centralized because we are all citizens of one country or the other. We have being given out our information ever since we were given birth to starting from the hospital that your mom put to bed. Presently,we still have forms that we fill to enable us have access to some rights and benefits in our country. So why are we scared of using a centralized exchange that needs KYC for transactions to be successful. DEX is the best no doubt because of its privacy but it lacks giving its users access to the currency of their choice and other crpytocurrency. Traders need to use exchange for their daily business which makes a lot of people to use CEX than DEX.

Well, OP, for trading only CEX makes sense. DEX makes no sense for regular trading.

And the Bitcoin DEXes don't have a lot of volume and so charge well over the current price, so their is a fee issue with them. Also you can only buy in certain amounts - the amounts that people are selling on the DEX. Over time hopefully Bitcoin DEXes will get much higher volume and so they will get close to the exchange rate of Bitcoin and will have lots of different amounts to buy and sell which will make them useful for more people.



But yeah I agree with your general idea, that DEXes are better because we can keep our bitcoin anonymous. It's a bit of a chicken and egg probably currently, because they need much more volume to be more useful but more people won't use them until they many more users to provide that volume.


Bisq for example only does about 1200 trades per week, doing about 40 - 100 bitcoin in volume per week. That's nothing. And the prices range thousands of dollars away from the actual price of Bitcoin, so that to buy more than a couple tenths of a bitcoin you need to $1000 or more above the current price.

Exchange peer-to-peer BTC <-> Revolut USD/EUR, and convert the fiat to your national currency. It must support literally every national currency. They say they don't charge anything for the conversion.

We're going to agree on liquidity, but Bisq is much more convenient to use than, say, Binance. It's much easier to have Bisq installed, running, and having a trade completed, in comparison with Binance, in which you'll have to submit a ton of stuff, solve a bunch of captchas, verify your email address / phone number etc., and wait for an undefined time to have your account approved.

Looking back, the second-largest cryptocurrency exchange in the world Obviously, the exchange has too much power; they control almost everything. The price is soaring, but the money in your wallet is really still on the exchange. The exchange became like a big crowdfunding guy, making his own sales; you put your money in. After you have put your money in, will the exchange keep the necessary amount for you to withdraw?

So the question is, Who is monitoring? Brothers who borrow money at the bank certainly understand that this is extremely fragile. Why? The bank is supervised by the state bank, which regulates the amount of money that must be kept at the bank. If you go to mobilize 10, you can only lend out 8. The amount of money withheld must absolutely comply with the amount prescribed by the state bank. The total loan amount is also regulated (in the world called room); when the room runs out, the money in the bank must also be left alone, not just 10 he himself went to lend 15.

So with cryptocurrencies, who is in control? Public and privates, if the exchange is known, it's okay, there is no organization or government to control that amount of money.

CEX portray to be useful mainly for trading purpose which is a feature deficient of DEX. Another pretty reason why people still go on using CEX despite the stories surrounding it is in the area of local currency p2p exchange almost all the DEX op made example of are basically on USD and Euro so many traders for the sake of the local currency p2p  system made available by these Cex like binance it's just so impossible to avoid making use of them.

There's a saying in our local parlance," that you can't throw away the bad water with the baby". A remedy  to prevent careless losses of our coins is to making sure not to leave our coins under their custody after doing business or trading, do well to send your coins to your non-custodial wallet or to any Dex you are using. Only make use of Cex when you have the need to.

If you're interested in choosing an exchange for use then learn to know and understand the difference between a centralized exchange and a decentralized exchange, understand the reason why you should use one and avoid any, if you're still avoiding banks and yet still uses a centralized exchange makes nothing different, you must know how to have your bitcoin within your control and how you could maintain a security measure with handling your keys in a safety manners, not your keys not your coins.

Agree in principal, but I actually might advise the regular user, if choosing to liquidate, to go for a CEX -- depending on where they're from and which CEX we're talking about. US or UK? Go for Coinbase, for example, and benefit from some state protections if things go wrong with the exchange.

And most regular people might also need to account for tax and insurance on their post-crypto wealth. A CEX might make that life easier.

It's hard enough to get people to safeguard their coins with sole custody. Getting them to then use P2P with low liquidity and multiple steps for errors without protection is a next step farther down the line.

As a lot of users already mention, we're trying to understand that people want ease and assurance. Bisq, etc. tend to scare people away (if suggested too soon).

Yes, but that's the kind of message I'm trying to get across too, I think that if more people used P2P / DEX services, the supply would automatically be greater, and that would solve the currencies' problem.

Personally, I never buy BTC (my BTC comes from mining + signature campaigns and my salaries paid directly in BTC), but I do sell some dusts on a regular basis. I regularly receive offers for currencies other than USD or EUR, which I accept. Depending on the country and the bank, conversion fees below certain amounts are not a problem (at least for me). I give preference to the less common fiat currencies when I sell, precisely because the point you raise is true, some users have difficulty using their local FIAT in P2P.


I must confess that I don't look too closely at the value of BTC in FIAT. I sell some BTC to pay for certain things, and like everyone else, I'm not against the idea of BTC having a high fiat value. But I would have said the same thing with BTC at 3,000 usd, which is basically the same to me. I'm not denying that CEX has helped push up BTC's popularity and therefore its price. However, I don't deny either that they are contributing to denature BTC from its original purpose.


Fair enough.  I tend to forget that people use BTC for trading, it's not my personal conception of its use but you make a very good point.


Bitcoin ATMs are a good solution for example. Some own excessive high fees, some not, it depends of your geographical situation of course.


Bisq is fine regarding this concern IMO. Peachbitcoin and the system of escrow too, but you have to trust them indeed.


Fair enough. I have contacted them myself on the forum to ask if they are planning to stay on their « mobile app only » policy only or not, the lack of website UI is a problem for me too (but still less than giving my KYC to Coinbase or others bandits).