Topic: "Not your keys, Not your coins" is not enough - page 6. (Read 999 times)

Bisq as a p2p platform is trustless and very secure, the trading funds and security deposits are locked up in a multi-sig wallet, and the wallet key holders is only the trading parties involved, this is perfectly trustless and secure in my honest opinion.

I agree that Centralized exchanges are more convenient and have better liquidity, but true p2p platforms like Bisq are trustless, more secure and perfect for privacy. Needless to say that there are a lot of fake decentralized exchanges that are indeed centralized and not secure, and they should be totally avoided and not mistaken for true p2p platforms.

Not only traders but even investors who are from countries where adoption of bitcoin and cryptocurrency at large isn’t big and their currencies are hardly available on these decentralized exchanges. Converting them to the available ones would still require you to swap them to your currency. My only advice when dealing with these exchanges I.e centralized one’s is that do not treat them as wallet but rather as a marketplace where you buy and take off your funds.

As for traders use two or more of them so that when one eats the dust you down you have another to turn, considering you never leave off large amounts on any of them.


And I think if one gets scammed on this P2P while using centralized exchanges they do try to return one’s fund although little amount hardly gets the exchange attention and but something like 1btc sure does although it also takes time. The P2P scammer are easily gotten by the KYC they submitted. Sadly this is the advantage of it

Peach Bitcoin ask their users to install their software in order to use their service, I don't feel safe and trust them. If their service is a web based, I would explore their site and compare the fee with the other sites.

What do you think the solution for those people who want to use DEX/P2P but their country aren't accept USD or EUR? is there such digital bank that accept every currency and the fees is worth to use?

Because most think like this
- you need to find a trader that matches your offer, which is not so easy
- it's more costly as with a CEX they survive on the trade fees, with a P2P the guy that is always there to handle your exchange is doing this for money also, so the rates will be lower, and also you're going to pay the transfer fees

- are you uncomfortable with CEX knowing your name and face? Then are you happy with a total stranger on the internet knowing your full name and bank account when you do a so-called P2P exchange?
- with a CEX you always think you have support, you send some coins, you exchange them, and that's it, there is no third party with which you have to dispute sanctions, there is no fear of somebody doing a chargeback, there is no fear that you might have just bought coins from somebody who is going to be raided tomorrow and he has your contact as last person called in his list


I have to install an app, meh! Is it open source? Nope!
I'm giving my name and my bank details for a SEPA transfer, I am!
So, what's the difference?

Don't get me wrong, I completely hate CEX, I hate the charade that is called bitcoin cards with a visa logo, and I hate Binance and CZ probably the most on this entire forum, but let's not ignore facts, CEX are more convenient, that's why they are used because I don't have to contact some stranger, I don't have to log in my bank accounts and make a payment to exactly Quassam Bon Loden of exactly 1446.6 Euros to this account AD1400080001001234567890 and not one wrong letter and number.

Let's not even go into daily trading as that's impossible in P2P.

Nobody should limit other people's choices because they have various interests, professions, backgrounds or whatever. The important thing is to keep telling them that every decision has its own consequence.
Bitcoin with its unique characteristics may not help in all aspects, on the other hand CEX has advantages at some points even in the judgment of someone with a typical skeptic of anything regulated. Some gangs will even say, "fuck privacy, I know what I'm doing more than you think".

Your concern is a good one and I had thought of it many times, it's the same answer that keeps ringing in my head.

You are judging by the relevance of Bitcoin today, but neglecting the impact of CEX in helping it to have a deeper root. CEX builds businesses and eases around Bitcoin. And I would continue to say that it wouldn't have achieved this popularity and adoption so fast without CEX. CEX is the one that builds the trust of people more on Bitcoin due to the ease of accessibility of their coins and the ability to use them fast and interchangeably within the system. It offers the added advantages that DEX can't offer, which include higher liquidity, zero exchange fee and much more.

DEX would have done it if it has the power. Aside from keeping Bitcoin private and preserving ownership, CEX offer more benefits that people will turn a deaf hear to what you have to say about DEX.

Although this is a beautiful speech and theory, it lacks practical use.

How can you sell/buy your bitcoin to/from usd or any other local currency  without a cex?

You will basically depend on p2p, which lacks security and is based on trust. Where is the trustless here?


Additionally,  how would you feel safer to sell 1 btc or more? In binance/coinbase or a p2p plataform.?
Binance will not exit scam you for  1 btc... but a p2p guy might.

One of biggest problem with DEX/P2P is lack of local currency. If you don't use USD or EUR, the option would be severally limited and sometimes with unfavorable exchange rate.

Some centralized exchanges create their Decentralized exchanges. Do people trust that those centralized-exchange-owned decentralized exchanges are actually decentralized and don't have back doors, keep logs like Chip Mixer?

Personally I don't use such DEX. If I care about privacy, I use a completely DEX, non KYC, anonymous team.

Like you can trade with higher trading volume on a CEX and why do you have to use their DEX with many questions about back doors and during trading, you will have worse trading volume.

If you want privacy and anonymity, you can use decentralized exchange like Bisq.

But if you are a trader, you may have no option than to use central exchanges. We traders can only prefer to use no-KYC centralized exchange but this is shrinking as more centralized exchanges that are no-KYC continue to start to mandate KYC. We do not have that privacy, but we should not leave our coins on exchanges, that is very important. All coins should be stored on noncustodial wallet.

kycnot.me list Kucoin, but with low trust score of 4 because it is a centralized exchange. It is the first no-KYC exchange that we recognized, but no more because they will start mandating KYC starting from July 15th, which is just not more than two weeks from now.

If you say no CEX at all, that is not possible, traders rely on CEX to trade. If you want privacy, do not scalp and day trade but focus only on buying and selling bitcoin using decentralized exchanges like Bisq or the use of this forum.

CEX basically means Centralized exchange. So any service for exchanging cryptos that goes through a single point of failure such a website is technically also centralized. Including every website you have listed except for Bisq (that's how Bettercallraul were able to exit scam everyone).

I think you should be going after custodial CEX (that is, using your CEX as a wallet). Because if I make an exchange service without trading features, that only allows you to send crypto to the service which then goes to the bank or wherever the exit is, then there is no liquidity that can be trashcanned for the service to go bust.

Of course, the risk of scams remain as Bettercallraul have already demonstrated - I could simply design a service that collects the deposits without sending it to where it's supposed to go. But that risk is omnipresent for every website you use that accepts payments of some form.

It is more easily you don't trade and only invest. You can choose non KYC exchanges to buy Bitcoin and some altcoins, then hold them in your wallets.

The most challenging problem for many people is: they are not investors, but they are traders. They trade a lot, with many coins and tokens so they end up to use centralized exchanges. It is a biggest issue to maintain non KYC practice. They only can achieve non KYC if they are not trading many altcoins to get rich.

I read your note.

You should add this topic Reminder: Do not store your coins in online accounts.

« Not your Keys, Not your Coins ». « Don’t keep your Bitcoin on exchanges »

These advices are excellent, and no rational person with a genuine interest for Bitcoin should ignore them. There's no need to explain why, when you consider the number of scandals, scams, exit scams and accounts frozen / seized by the different CEX; because, let's not forget, CEXs work hand in hand with governments.
All the people advising this are therefore informed that CEXs are not reliable, do not work in our personal interest, and rightly so.

However, every time I read this on the internet, people stop at the Bitcoin storage step. That's not enough. There's another important step: exchanging Bitcoin.

So why not just advise and tell people to stop using CEX entirely? Bitcoin is by nature decentralized, why make it centralized? Why should a CEX that doesn't deserve to store our financial funds, our cryptos, deserve to be left with our banking and personal information?
Is it really that important to take the risk of having your funds frozen, losing your personal data, and enriching these useless people? Who wants to contribute to CZ's wealth, or encourage Coinbase in their disgusting practices?

Some will reply that CEX users choose "convenience ". Even that's not true! How is passing your KYC to Binance and using their UI easier than installing/using the Peachbitcoin (for example) app? It’s not! The only reason CEXs are in this position is because they benefit from substantial advertising resources.

We have effecient, fast, simple, user-friendly and totally P2P solutions at our disposal. For example :

-Bisq, a great P2P exchange, focused on privacy
-PeachBitcoin, their motto is #KYCfree
-Robosats, simple and efficient for those using Lightning network
-Majestic Bank, where you can swap BTC and XMR in a privacy-friendly way
-LocalMonero, another P2P exchange platform ; privacy focused

There are plenty of others, which you can easily find on kycnot.me

So why not advise people to use these services, in addition to advising them to use a non-custodial wallet?
Why shouldn't we be as enthusiastic about advising people not to use and register on CEX as we are about not storing their BTC there?

Not your keys, not your coins. No CEX at all.


P.S. : In this topic I'm not interested in altcoins and launchpad / launchpool type products, I'm only talking about Bitcoin exchange and storage. Personally, I don't think any launchpad justify a KYC procedure, but it's up to each individual to determine his or her priorities.

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For those who want to read more on this subject, I highly recommend this topic from GazetaBitcoin