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Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information - page 348. (Read 2761645 times)

legendary
Activity: 2184
Merit: 1000
Idea:

Don't know the feasibility of it though.

1) Inf-Com puts up 1,000,000 Nxt. in an account.....issues a Sell on AE....sets the price at 100 Nodecoin for 1 Nxt or whatever ....then if anyone who has been running his node has 100 nodecoin he can redeem it and get 1 nxt.

Nodecoins should not be transferable. Once they are redeemed they should be send back to the nodepool for collection by others.

I'm sure we can fix the Nodecoin generation rate so the program can run for x amount of time.


This is a rough idea....I don;t have the time to think this thru into more details.


It will allow new nxters to determine how much Nxt they can get if they run their clients for x amount of time.

 
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1010
@Damelon

i read your comment on reddit where you mention 4 companies that will ipo on the AE? i know of NMAC and DGEX but may i ask what are the other two and would anyone have links to more information about them and their ipo's? thanks

RHOS (Robin Hood Of Sound): http://www.rhosmovement.com/?lang=en

and

Nxtopia: a game built on top of Nxt. (https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ann-nxtopia-a-mmorpg-built-on-top-of-the-nxt-network-474535)

Smiley
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 250
Where nodecoin becomes part of the fabric of NXT is if we as a community decides to offer it as an official ongoing reward to run a computer and support our network.

Once we do this, once we cross over this line, we can no longer call ourselves a pure Proof of Stake cryptocurrency.  

We will have changed the core definition of what NXT is if the NXT experience is expanded to include the awarding of nodecoin along with the forging of NXT.

This is the key point of rj's argument. Nodecoin is not any "ordinary" coin anyone can create on top of Nxt. If it were, no one would have any reason to object to it.

Reasons why it is not any ordinary coin:-

1. It was designed to be used as an integral part of Nxt. At the heart of any crypto currency is the blockchain, and how it is secured. NodeCoin has been positioned to be the mechanism to (help) secure it. Anything, whose function is to secure the network will be seen as an integral part of Nxt, whether it is in the NRS core or otherwise. This alters, or at least can be perceived to alter, the DNA and hence the very identity of Nxt. Therefore it cannot be treated as just an ordinary coin anybody can build.

2. It is designed to power the key engines of Nxt (AE, gateways, NXTCash, NXTmixer, etc), which are projects funded by the community. "Nodecoin should be redeemable for accessing services (DAC, NxtCash, whatever)". So if a Nxter has millions of Nxt but no NodeCoins, he has to buy them just to uses the very services that are suppose to make Nxt unique? That makes NodeCoins to be more superior in function than NXT.

Edit: I hope I have got this point wrong!

3. It has been positioned by James as a non-profit, community project. This gives further credence to Ricky's point that "we as a community decide to offer it as an official ongoing reward to run a computer and support our network". If this has been privately developed by James as a random Nxter, this association will be absent.

If we agree that it is no ordinary coin for the above reasons, then we should consider Ricky's point about NodeCoin altering the very fabric of Nxt; and not just brushing it aside as just a coin anybody can create on top of Nxt.

member
Activity: 94
Merit: 10
- lick us at facebooks and twitters and retweet us

LOL

U, guys, can't stop creating memes as I see. YUB, HODL and LICK!

Edit: Oh, I forgot about FOGRE...

It is right. I lick Nxt! We all lick Nxt!
sr. member
Activity: 308
Merit: 250
There's also alias assignment; you'd have to check client side if the alias exists already, asset issuance - checking if name exists, minimum fee. Placing a sell order checking if you have enough of the asset, etc etc.. Do you do all this client side? Most of these require that you do an asynchronous call anyway (checking if name exists), some perhaps even more than 1 request. So I think it's best you let the server do all that, and you just verify what is sent back is correct before signing and broadcasting it.


It doesn't make sense to write what you call an ultralight client then.

Why would you not implement this yourself in a client and have a trustless solution?

THESE 2.  JLP, can you add an option to allow NRS to only process certain API requests from localhost?

Why? The prepareTransaction is good to get server side error handling (one shouldn't rely on client side error handling), when we get the response back, we can "unpack" it and see if it's the same as our input, if so, broadcast it out. You shouldn't disable this functionality.

Yes, if it's done like this it is ok from a security point of view.

On the other hand, looking at SendMoney.java for example, it's really just a check for enough funds. The rest of the checks in there is trivial and should be checked client-side anyway.

So I don't think prepareTransaction is worth the (asynchronous) hassle.
hero member
Activity: 910
Merit: 1000
how would i go about running a node? its not possible for me to leave a computer running all the time... (renting a room and my laptop is LOUD) so cant leave it running.. is there anything else i can do?

raspberry pi / cubietruck.

cool il get on that one! Smiley

http://wiki.nxtcrypto.org/wiki/How-To:InstallNRSRaspberryPi
sr. member
Activity: 952
Merit: 253
Where nodecoin becomes part of the fabric of NXT is if we as a community decides to offer it as an official ongoing reward to run a computer and support our network.
Once we do this, once we cross over this line, we can no longer call ourselves a pure Proof of Stake cryptocurrency.  

I can see how this perception could arise - the mistake (i have made it too) is  in referring to this as a poW coin - PoW is associated with miners competing with increasing computing power - this coin is a simple reward for doing work you were doing anyway so it does not affect the PoS of NXT and we should stop calling it PoW.

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We will have changed the core definition of what NXT is if the NXT experience is expanded to include the awarding of nodecoin along with the forging of NXT.

It has been made plain in extensive posts that people WILL NOT be sufficiently rewarded by forging to justify running a NXT node and if the number of transactions arises and it starts to stress the home broadband quotas/bandwidths or the laptop performance etc people will keep turn their clients off. What will encourage people to keep their clients on?

Quote
Now, we are a very young cryptocurrency.  We have to build a brand if we are to survive.  Branding involves differentiating yourself from other brands; in our case, Bitcoin.  Good branding also has to be clear and distinct and simple to understand on a gut or subconscious level without having to do a lot of reasoning or logic to figure out what the difference is with a competing brand.

The best branding NXT has come up with so far is that it is green.  NXT uses far less electricity than PoW mining - megawatts less, and that's a hugely significant amount.  A simple way of communicating this "green idea" is "They're PoW and use lots of power; we're PoS so we don't have to".  Even at Texas Bitcoin Conference the Jane Sixpack who was sitting beside me in the panel got that idea when I expressed it and said it would resonate among the average public.  

Again node coin is NOT PoW - I've run 50/100 copies of node coin on a single sore VPS server alongside NXT and cpu didnt go above 3% and it was 3% before with just NXT running.

Quote
Now I am afraid - I have fear without proof - that officially structuring our product to give out nodecoins as a created-out-of-thin air reward to our users will compromise our brand.  This SOUNDS like Proof of Work.   In fact it is not, since the person doing it hasn't done one single thing they would not have done if the reward was not given to them.  They have done no extra computations.  They have burned no extra electricity.  Really they have just given to NXT Proof of Existence or Proof of Participation.  It's like getting a Perfect Attendance award in elementary school - a piece of paper that makes you feel good for something you should do anyway.  

But now if we do this we take away significant differences between us and our competition.  Now NXT officially gives out "award coins" out of thin air, just like Bitcoin.   Now we WANT people to think the award coins have speculative value and will rise in value on our AE through speculation and trading, just like Bitcoin.  We have created a way for people to get-rich-quick on NXT, just like Bitcoin.  So - how are we different from Bitcoin?

And if we do this we also have to add caveats to our story we tell to brand ourselves.   NXT is green - but their Proof of Work coins are dirty and our Proof of Work coins are clean, because they have to burn megawatts of electricity and throw away literally 15 thousand million billion perfectly good cryptographic block candidates that don't have enough zeros on the front end to win a prize to get their next block and win extra prize coins, and we give our prize coins away at the next block for doing absolutely nothing extra at all.  It makes us sound as crazy as Bitcoin.  

Compare that to "They're PoW and use LOTS of power; we're PoS so we don't have to".

It's not nodecoins themselves I have a problem with.  The ability to create new coins on top of the NXT blockchain is a brilliant piece of work, James.  I can see where that is of interest to many people and will draw many people to NXT.  It's the rationale that NXT has to give nodecoins away to help "secure the network" or "pay for the network" that I question.  If people are creating their own coins and trading them on AE, won't they have their clients open and be supporting the NXT network during that time?   As we become more successful and add the other services such as streaming quotes and AE  candlestick charts and all the rest so AE looks more and more like an "official" exchange, isn't THIS going to keep people interested in keeping their clients open so they can follow the ever-growing action?   Won't THIS support and secure the network?

I would go so far to say that instead of giving out free nodecoins on AE, we should cut NXT transaction fees to zero on AE.  Won't THIS bring more people to AE - making it a TOTALLY FREE exchange with NO service fees or house cut AT ALL?  Now THAT'S branding.  THAT'S a product differentiator.  That will bring people to NXT in droves:  FREE FREE FREE.  And it costs us nothing - it's just another feature in the client software, and a choice we make as a community on how to operate our coin, and an approach that DOES NOT COMPROMISE OUR STATUS AS A PURE PROOF OF STAKE COIN.

James, don't be discouraged.  You have done a brilliant piece of work that will draw many people to NXT.  As you say, though, this tech is so revolutionary and so disruptive that it has the potential to disrupt NXT itself.  And something with that much power we have GOT to have open conversations about and decide if we want to do genetic engineering on ourselves and alter our very DNA and mutate into something new.  

I say let everybody in the world create 1000 new coins and trade them with wild, crazy abandon on AE - but not NXT itself.  In my opinion, NXT itself should not do this.  Do not create a "special" extra NXT coin, and certainly not one that is then GIVEN AWAY.  The casino runs the game, it doesn't play at the tables itself.  Let the action generated by everybody else's coins being traded cause clients to be open and the NXT network supported.  Don't try to generate this support by the emotional draw of a "free giveaway" that tries to pull people in by playing to their greed and raise in them hopes of get-rich-quick.

In this section its clear you understand what node coins are and that there is a branding and perception issue - so lets deal with it?
 
In this section you have a really good summary of how much FUD & misunderstanding has been created by not properly discussing a topic in this thread.

We also have to recognise that at the moment - without community good will and community direct funding we will lose nodes and network integrity because FORGING just isn't and never will be enough for the average person.

People will create scam coins on AE and we will get a bad name for it...
People will try to 'get rich quick' and maybe NXT AE will get a reputation for allowing this.
James work does not make that more or less likely.

FUD often causes communities to pillory ideas and reject them, we need to overcome that.
We need to rehabilitate the news around node coin..
We can simply say 'no official community funding or sponsorship for it' it is what it is and it will survive or die...

We still need a way of securing the network - that problem does not go away.
sr. member
Activity: 308
Merit: 250
how would i go about running a node? its not possible for me to leave a computer running all the time... (renting a room and my laptop is LOUD) so cant leave it running.. is there anything else i can do?

raspberry pi / cubietruck.
hero member
Activity: 910
Merit: 1000
Fee should depend on data size coz it solves a technical problem (spam prevention).

I like it. Let's discuss.
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
Offtopic: NRS has been working stable for more than one week. I'm missing days when we had all the blocks becoming orphaned. It was like playing Russian roulette, u never knew if there was at least one node that kept a copy of the blockchain...

What days are you referring to?

Good ole days
legendary
Activity: 1205
Merit: 1000
Offtopic: NRS has been working stable for more than one week. I'm missing days when we had all the blocks becoming orphaned. It was like playing Russian roulette, u never knew if there was at least one node that kept a copy of the blockchain...
Now I can sleep!  Wink
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
Why the price is keeping going down?
don't worry, price drop was caused by those 2 stakeholders:
http://87.230.14.1/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=3000&acc=4483676211889446810
http://87.230.14.1/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=2000&tra=12023091469145621022

but it was supported only by these:
http://87.230.14.1/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=2000&tra=12169060789793651904
http://87.230.14.1/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=2000&tra=18286075937885214016
http://87.230.14.1/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=2000&tra=14279129699678101070

Everyone else is buying, a lot! Bter's account is much smaller than a week ago. There are massive buyings in last week, thanks to these stakeholders, massive adoption
It's a bit of a disgrace they only pay 1 fee for sending al those hunderd-thousands of NXT. Sometimes I think the fees should be relative to the amount of NXT. Something like this:

< 10 000 NXT send = min. 1 NXT fee
10000-100000 NXT send = min. 10 NXT fee
100000-1000000 NXT send = min. 100 NXT fee
> 1000000 NXT send = min. 1000 NXT fee

In the future this could be, because we want to lower the fees:

< 10 000 NXT send = min. 0.01 NXT fee
10000-100000 NXT send = min. 0.1 NXT fee
100000-1000000 NXT send = min. 1 NXT fee
> 1000000 NXT send = min. 10 NXT fee
 

What are your thoughts? The big guys earn of the fees of the small guys now, so it's more fair if they pay more for transactions?


I agree +1
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82
Fee should depend on data size coz it solves a technical problem (spam prevention). An attempt to make it depending on sent amount is an attempt to make the world more "fair". Don't mix technical and political/ethical problems, plz.

+ 1440
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82
What are your thoughts? The big guys earn of the fees of the small guys now, so it's more fair if they pay more for transactions?

I do not see why changing fees the way you described it would change that.

To make that more clear: it has nothing to do with each other at all.

Earning fees is something completely different than spending them.
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
It's a bit of a disgrace they only pay 1 fee for sending al those hunderd-thousands of NXT. Sometimes I think the fees should be relative to the amount of NXT. Something like this:

< 10 000 NXT send = min. 1 NXT fee
10000-100000 NXT send = min. 10 NXT fee
100000-1000000 NXT send = min. 100 NXT fee
> 1000000 NXT send = min. 1000 NXT fee

In the future this could be, because we want to lower the fees:

< 10 000 NXT send = min. 0.01 NXT fee
10000-100000 NXT send = min. 0.1 NXT fee
100000-1000000 NXT send = min. 1 NXT fee
> 1000000 NXT send = min. 10 NXT fee
 

What are your thoughts? The big guys earn of the fees of the small guys now, so it's more fair if they pay more for transactions?

Fee should depend on data size coz it solves a technical problem (spam prevention). An attempt to make it depending on sent amount is an attempt to make the world more "fair". Don't mix technical and political/ethical problems, plz.
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82
Offtopic: NRS has been working stable for more than one week. I'm missing days when we had all the blocks becoming orphaned. It was like playing Russian roulette, u never knew if there was at least one node that keeped a copy of the blockchain...

Imagine that...  issues regarding NRS have become Offtopic...  ROFLMAO!    Grin

They are.

Issues are bookkept here: https://bitbucket.org/JeanLucPicard/nxt/issues?status=new&status=open
sr. member
Activity: 308
Merit: 250
Why the price is keeping going down?
don't worry, price drop was caused by those 2 stakeholders:
http://87.230.14.1/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=3000&acc=4483676211889446810
http://87.230.14.1/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=2000&tra=12023091469145621022

but it was supported only by these:
http://87.230.14.1/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=2000&tra=12169060789793651904
http://87.230.14.1/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=2000&tra=18286075937885214016
http://87.230.14.1/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=2000&tra=14279129699678101070

Everyone else is buying, a lot! Bter's account is much smaller than a week ago. There are massive buyings in last week, thanks to these stakeholders, massive adoption
It's a bit of a disgrace they only pay 1 fee for sending al those hunderd-thousands of NXT. Sometimes I think the fees should be relative to the amount of NXT. Something like this:

< 10 000 NXT send = min. 1 NXT fee
10000-100000 NXT send = min. 10 NXT fee
100000-1000000 NXT send = min. 100 NXT fee
> 1000000 NXT send = min. 1000 NXT fee

In the future this could be, because we want to lower the fees:

< 10 000 NXT send = min. 0.01 NXT fee
10000-100000 NXT send = min. 0.1 NXT fee
100000-1000000 NXT send = min. 1 NXT fee
> 1000000 NXT send = min. 10 NXT fee
 

What are your thoughts? The big guys earn of the fees of the small guys now, so it's more fair if they pay more for transactions?


NRS UI automatically adjusts the fee based on amount, but allows you to manually override it (e.g. set it to 1).
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82
Offtopic: NRS has been working stable for more than one week. I'm missing days when we had all the blocks becoming orphaned. It was like playing Russian roulette, u never knew if there was at least one node that kept a copy of the blockchain...

What days are you referring to?
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