Can we not change from a blockchain to a blocktree?
A recently written paper suggested if Bitcoin turned to this approach the transaction times could be reduced to less than 10 seconds, if i recall correctly.
Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information - page 622. (Read 2761629 times)
We can reduce. But if u set gap between blocks to 10 sec then u'll need 6 times more confirmations to get the same reliability.
Exactly what I was trying to explain (perhaps you'll accept it when it comes from CfB rather than me).
This is exactly the problem that so many of the "alts" have - they think that you can just reduce the confirmation time and everything is fine.
Why can Ripple have 3 second transactions and NXT can't?
I want to believe in NXT but following these threads makes me think there's a good chance I've dumped a good deal of money in the toilet. And yeah yeah, I'm just another speculator so who cares about me, but it's thousands of people like me who will make NXT a success or not. Dismiss us all you want but for NXT to be a success you do need us. Consider me a representative sample.
I'm right there with you.
But one thing is for sure - this is a community that is chomping at the bit to make NXT work, and work right as the revolutionary invention it can be, not just make money off or it.
One way or another things are going to be very different in six weeks. CfB will be gone, the complete source code will be out (hopefully, and with or without comments) and we can take inventory on which of the original devs (if any, including BCNext himself) wants to stick around for Phase 2 of NXT. And we WILL get a team together, and we WILL understand this code even if we have to reverse engineer line by line as some kind of alien tech we found in a UFO crash, and we WILL go to da moon.
CfB and BCNext are good, smart men who have my respect. But even as my confusion grows from their cryptic words, my faith in this NXT community also grows because of the tangible acts I see it perform.
Acts will persevere over words. Wait and see.
jean-luc said something about releasing the code earlier to attract developers. Perhaps we should do this. His suggested date was march 1st. This will give us (well, not me) time to review the code, add comments, etc... Meanwhile CFB is still working for us and it gives us time to adapt to him leaving. It could also just be released to a smaller group of trusted individuals that will do a review, comment the code, etc..
Agree. I believe its in NXT best interest to at the least have Jean reveal the complete code sooner rather than later to select trusted individuals so that we can have some of the dedicated transition dev's know all the info they need of NXT after CfB, etc. are gone.
Not much a coder but from what I see not waiting to reveal the code would have much negativity on NXT especially if its for the transition team of devs.
I want to believe in NXT but following these threads makes me think there's a good chance I've dumped a good deal of money in the toilet. And yeah yeah, I'm just another speculator so who cares about me, but it's thousands of people like me who will make NXT a success or not. Dismiss us all you want but for NXT to be a success you do need us. Consider me a representative sample.
I'm right there with you.
But one thing is for sure - this is a community that is chomping at the bit to make NXT work, and work right as the revolutionary invention it can be, not just make money off or it.
One way or another things are going to be very different in six weeks. CfB will be gone, the complete source code will be out (hopefully, and with or without comments) and we can take inventory on which of the original devs (if any, including BCNext himself) wants to stick around for Phase 2 of NXT. And we WILL get a team together, and we WILL understand this code even if we have to reverse engineer line by line as some kind of alien tech we found in a UFO crash, and we WILL go to da moon.
CfB and BCNext are good, smart men who have my respect. But even as my confusion grows from their cryptic words, my faith in this NXT community also grows because of the tangible acts I see it perform.
Acts will persevere over words. Wait and see.
jean-luc said something about releasing the code earlier to attract developers. Perhaps we should do this. His suggested date was march 1st. This will give us (well, not me) time to review the code, add comments, etc... Meanwhile CFB is still working for us and it gives us time to adapt to him leaving. It could also just be released to a smaller group of trusted individuals that will do a review, comment the code, etc..
This is the correct path to take - an intermediate group that acts as an advance scout whose main goal is to get the code ready for public circulation.
The WHOLE POINT of going open source with this code is to share it with others. Open source code is useless to anybody who can't make sense of it. Releasing it March 1st is a guarantee to make that happen. Taking the month of March to show the code to a transition team of others whose sole job is to UNDERSTAND IT and COMMENT IT and DOCUMENT IT (and not ADD to it) is absolutely the right thing to do.
What is the ideal outcome we should be shooting for? 1000 new coders on April 5 that can pick up the NXT open source modules and immediately start adding many new features in a coordinated, cooperative fashion. Are we currently on a path to achieve that ideal goal? Hell no. So let's use the time we've got on the clock to start moving in that direction. Releasing undocumented, mystic / confusing code on March 1 instead of April 4 only makes the clusterf#@k happen a month early. We don't want that.
Designate a code documenting transition team that starts interfacing NOW with the current devs. Ground rule number one is that devs drop all the cryptic mumbo jumbo talk and come clean with the transition team where everything actually stands as of right now. Then we can all start picking up the pieces to build something even more wonderful.
I want to believe in NXT but following these threads makes me think there's a good chance I've dumped a good deal of money in the toilet. And yeah yeah, I'm just another speculator so who cares about me, but it's thousands of people like me who will make NXT a success or not. Dismiss us all you want but for NXT to be a success you do need us. Consider me a representative sample.
I'm right there with you.
But one thing is for sure - this is a community that is chomping at the bit to make NXT work, and work right as the revolutionary invention it can be, not just make money off or it.
One way or another things are going to be very different in six weeks. CfB will be gone, the complete source code will be out (hopefully, and with or without comments) and we can take inventory on which of the original devs (if any, including BCNext himself) wants to stick around for Phase 2 of NXT. And we WILL get a team together, and we WILL understand this code even if we have to reverse engineer line by line as some kind of alien tech we found in a UFO crash, and we WILL go to da moon.
CfB and BCNext are good, smart men who have my respect. But even as my confusion grows from their cryptic words, my faith in this NXT community also grows because of the tangible acts I see it perform.
Acts will persevere over words. Wait and see.
jean-luc said something about releasing the code earlier to attract developers. Perhaps we should do this. His suggested date was march 1st. This will give us (well, not me) time to review the code, add comments, etc... Meanwhile CFB is still working for us and it gives us time to adapt to him leaving. It could also just be released to a smaller group of trusted individuals that will do a review, comment the code, etc..
I want to believe in NXT but following these threads makes me think there's a good chance I've dumped a good deal of money in the toilet. And yeah yeah, I'm just another speculator so who cares about me, but it's thousands of people like me who will make NXT a success or not. Dismiss us all you want but for NXT to be a success you do need us. Consider me a representative sample.
I'm right there with you.
But one thing is for sure - this is a community that is chomping at the bit to make NXT work, and work right as the revolutionary invention it can be, not just make money off of it.
One way or another things are going to be very different in six weeks. CfB will be gone, the complete source code will be out (hopefully, and with or without comments) and we can take inventory on which of the original devs (if any, including BCNext himself) wants to stick around for Phase 2 of NXT. And we WILL get a team together, and we WILL understand this code even if we have to reverse engineer line by line as some kind of alien tech we found in a UFO crash, and we WILL go to da moon.
CfB and BCNext are good, smart men who have my respect. But even as my confusion grows from their cryptic words, my faith in this NXT community also grows because of the tangible acts I see it perform.
Acts will persevere over words. Wait and see.
Zahlen: thanks to negotiations in Berlin we have speakers at Austin and San Francisco 
But will there also be booth babes?
Current source code (with comments) should be shared to a select group of people.
I am assuming the actual source has comments.
CFB, does it?
I am assuming the actual source has comments.
CFB, does it?
Very little.
This would be good usage of a bounty. Get a java programmer to go through line by line and function by function and add some comments.
Who writes a program, expects the community to vet it, implement it, write on top of it, etc and does not include some documentation? A sadist. That's who.
After reading Come-From-Beyond's comments today and all the confused (but very well intentioned) replies, I'm starting to think Emule is not so far off his rocker as we might think.
The clock is ticking and NXT has competition.
You know who already has instant transactions? Ripple.
where? and in what context?
please list them.
Ripple, Etherium, Novacoin, Peercoin, Emunie, Mastercoin, probably others I'm not even aware of. I know Ripple is not yet decentralized but it has plans to be and XRP are transferred INSTANTLY, which is something NXT can't seem to figure out how to do. Etherium is an IPO mess but at least the lead developer LEADS, Peercoin is POS & POW, I know nothing about Novacoin but have heard they are on to some things. Emunie appears to be planning to offer very similar things to NXT. Mastercoin is the Bitcoin version of NXT and has that going for them. Who knows who else has caught on to the ideas of POS and are working hard on an alternative?
All I'm saying is that this thing is not operating in a vacuum. All of this mysterious talking in circles does nothing but waste time. Some other project may end up stealing NXT's thunder all because the inventor/developer wants to play God. Satoshi himself may be off somewhere working on his own Bitcoin 2.0 project.
I want to believe in NXT but following these threads makes me think there's a good chance I've dumped a good deal of money in the toilet. And yeah yeah, I'm just another speculator so who cares about me, but it's thousands of people like me who will make NXT a success or not. Dismiss us all you want but for NXT to be a success you do need us. Consider me a representative sample.
Zahlen: thanks to negotiations in Berlin we have speakers at Austin and San Francisco
NXT FUNDING COMMITTEE VOTE STARTS IN 29 HOURS
AT 12:01 AM MARCH 1 (UTC)
CANDIDACY DECLARATION CLOSES ONE HOUR BEFORE VOTING STARTS.
DECLARE YOUR CANDIDACY BY 11:01 PM FEB 28 (UTC)
CANDIDACY WITHDRAWAL CLOSES 24 HOURS BEFORE VOTING STARTS.
WITHDRAW YOUR CANDIDACY BY 12:01 AM FEB 28 (UTC) OR YOU ARE GOING ON THE BALLOT
Remaining eligible nominees with as-yet undeclared intentions
2Kool4Skewl, Arckam_(frmelin), bitcoinpaul, buybitcoinscanada, Cointropolis_JustabitTime, Come-from-Beyond
Damelon, davethetrousers, drevil, ferment, Fry, hughmanwho, jl777, Klee, landomata, laowai80, msin, mww
nexern, opticalcarrier, PeercoinEnthusiast, Pouncer, Ricot, SecondLeo, smaragda, VanBreuk, ZeroTheGreat
Something Zahlen said: A candidate does not need to be good at writing English. Some candidates may not have English as their mother tongue. If you're voting, don't confuse lots of writing for ability to judge the worth of a project. Remember that ultimately the committee's job is to decide which projects get funded.
If you are on this list and want to be on a NXT funding committee, go here:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.5280476
Background:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.5280786
NOTE SLATE UPDATES:
(Actually, antanst was a little late to the nominee party and was never on the blue list above. But he's a coder, he runs multiple NXT nodes and he wrote the NXT Reddit tipbot. Since I'm drunk with power and making the rules here, I say he's now a candidate for techdev. If you disagree, don't vote for him - run against him!).
(However, I am not so drunk that I'm gonna let just anybody on this slate. Newbie BC.NXT has posted on the candidate thread. However, after checking his credentials and posting background, I will not be listing him on the slate or ballot. To quote the mythical American television commercial: Sorry, Charley, only the best tuna get to be Star-Kist.)
(Another non-nominated NXTer has posted to be a candidate: BaiMangal. He is a coder, a frequent poster of serious posts, and runs the website www.quicknxt.com. I am adding him to the slate for techdev.)
(Jean-Luc has declared his candidacy for techdev.)
(rickyjames has withdrawn his candidcy for infrastructure.)
WE NOW HAVE A FULL SLATE.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_slate
Good luck to these nominees who have declared themselves candidates:
NXTmarketingfund: allwelder, Damelon, Mario123, Asian Prepper, joefox, brooklynbct, CoinTropolis_NiftyNikel, Uniqueorn, salsacz
NXTtechdevfund: EmoneyRu, Anon136, l8orre, abuelau, antanst, BaiMangal, Jean-Luc
NXTinfrastructurefund: chanc3r, EvilDave, pandaisftw, ChuckOne, ^[GS]^
Yeah, you may have seen this before. I'll be putting it up every ten pages or so. It's one of those "legitimate, transparent process" things.
AT 12:01 AM MARCH 1 (UTC)
CANDIDACY DECLARATION CLOSES ONE HOUR BEFORE VOTING STARTS.
DECLARE YOUR CANDIDACY BY 11:01 PM FEB 28 (UTC)
CANDIDACY WITHDRAWAL CLOSES 24 HOURS BEFORE VOTING STARTS.
WITHDRAW YOUR CANDIDACY BY 12:01 AM FEB 28 (UTC) OR YOU ARE GOING ON THE BALLOT
Remaining eligible nominees with as-yet undeclared intentions
2Kool4Skewl, Arckam_(frmelin), bitcoinpaul, buybitcoinscanada, Cointropolis_JustabitTime, Come-from-Beyond
Damelon, davethetrousers, drevil, ferment, Fry, hughmanwho, jl777, Klee, landomata, laowai80, msin, mww
nexern, opticalcarrier, PeercoinEnthusiast, Pouncer, Ricot, SecondLeo, smaragda, VanBreuk, ZeroTheGreat
Something Zahlen said: A candidate does not need to be good at writing English. Some candidates may not have English as their mother tongue. If you're voting, don't confuse lots of writing for ability to judge the worth of a project. Remember that ultimately the committee's job is to decide which projects get funded.
If you are on this list and want to be on a NXT funding committee, go here:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.5280476
Background:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.5280786
NOTE SLATE UPDATES:
(Actually, antanst was a little late to the nominee party and was never on the blue list above. But he's a coder, he runs multiple NXT nodes and he wrote the NXT Reddit tipbot. Since I'm drunk with power and making the rules here, I say he's now a candidate for techdev. If you disagree, don't vote for him - run against him!).
(However, I am not so drunk that I'm gonna let just anybody on this slate. Newbie BC.NXT has posted on the candidate thread. However, after checking his credentials and posting background, I will not be listing him on the slate or ballot. To quote the mythical American television commercial: Sorry, Charley, only the best tuna get to be Star-Kist.)
(Another non-nominated NXTer has posted to be a candidate: BaiMangal. He is a coder, a frequent poster of serious posts, and runs the website www.quicknxt.com. I am adding him to the slate for techdev.)
(Jean-Luc has declared his candidacy for techdev.)
(rickyjames has withdrawn his candidcy for infrastructure.)
WE NOW HAVE A FULL SLATE.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_slate
Good luck to these nominees who have declared themselves candidates:
NXTmarketingfund: allwelder, Damelon, Mario123, Asian Prepper, joefox, brooklynbct, CoinTropolis_NiftyNikel, Uniqueorn, salsacz
NXTtechdevfund: EmoneyRu, Anon136, l8orre, abuelau, antanst, BaiMangal, Jean-Luc
NXTinfrastructurefund: chanc3r, EvilDave, pandaisftw, ChuckOne, ^[GS]^
Yeah, you may have seen this before. I'll be putting it up every ten pages or so. It's one of those "legitimate, transparent process" things.
Dear God, reading these last 20 pages makes my head spin. I understand why some are frustrated with ambiguity and lack of communication, but you need to relax and be proactive!
I know how you feel, I had to catch up with like 100 pages! And all the quote pyramids came back! My head still hurts...
Much of the mystery from BCNext is attributed to the fact that he is still developing (programming) features. It is his right to stay anonymous.
I agree. And I think a lot of folks have built up too much on assuming that everything mentioned by CfB will come true. I'm not saying he and BCNext are lying. But some statements, you make when you think they're true/doable, but later you realize flaws with it, and the original statements go uncorrected. Some statements aren't meant to be taken alone, outside of context. The context could be "best case scenario", or "expected scenario", or "casual boast", or "very formal and literal" (i.e. be careful how you interpret it! I use this context a lot), or something else.
Like, I still don't get the focus on 1000 TPS. Maybe it's reasonable with TF, maybe it's an ideal situation, maybe something else. I dunno hardware but whatever the case economics tells me to just scale up as usage goes up, and keep costs down while usage is down (like right now), and not care too much about theoretical maximum. And since usage can be hard to predict for something as pioneering as Nxt, common sense tells me to set things up so that you can scale up and down easily.
It's much more sensible to work with what we already have. BCNext hasn't offered TF yet. That's fine, work without assuming TF. If you want to be sure of having TF, you could think about what TF could be like (I've been trying to do this.)
What we do have is the easily readable source for 0.4.7e (I've just started going through it, with my 0 Java skillz and general dislike of working with other people's code, since that makes my head hurt less than this thread
) We also have the (not so easily readable) sources for newer versions (if Jean-Luc and BCNext don't wish to release them yet, I'm sure there are folks here who know how to decompile Java and make it readable for others).We have some tools to help us understand it, the wiki comes to mind. If we put up code there, folks can freely comment on it. I'm sure all the devs here know even better tools, so please outcompete the wiki.
We have some theories about what TF could be like (one of mine is that advanced consensus will involve human intervention, not just algos alone. I've talked about this before), and unresolved questions about TF (how will it deal with network latency?) Maybe, instead of all those other fancy features of Nxt, this should be our primary focus right now?
We have sporadic, terse comments from CfB. Some people find it
Of course, folks may wish to trust in BCNext and wait for April instead. I'm fine with that too, I just like thinking about things.
Now personally I can't wrap my head around all of the convo about all this that's gone on in this thread. In fact I took a one week hiatus from this megathread to try to get my head away from all these distractions, so I could focus on the article I promised salsa (I'm sorry, didn't work, I still couldn't write much
) I've suggested other communication tools. I guess other folks don't feel they're worth trying out. But I don't think I want to keep "discussing" in this megathread too much if it stays like this, feels less like discussion and more like trying to think and speak in a loud room. But the side threads are good We will have a committee for unreleased funds in a couple days. I suggest that this committee also act on behalf of Nxt as our centralized "get shit done" group. These members will be the face of Nxt. I also suggest every committee member receive the option of 25k Nxt from unclaimed for their work.
....
Zahlen, please reconsider a place on the Technical Committee, I think you are overestimating the time you will need and you will be a great asset.
....
Zahlen, please reconsider a place on the Technical Committee, I think you are overestimating the time you will need and you will be a great asset.
Thanks for the vote of confidence
I wish it were just time spent reviewing proposals. But my head tends to get "locked up" when I'm thinking about interesting stuff, and I'm pretty sure there will be *lots* of interesting proposals. (If there aren't, funding committee composition won't matter!)25k Nxt is sorely tempting though (I know it's just your proposal for now), I could seriously use $. As much as I'd like it, the sensible approach seems to be that I just continue to
That way there's no expectation that I keep up with all the proposals.EDIT: If you guys like what I post, feel free to send me a tip! If you don't mind revealing your identity, send me a PM too. I've got a few tips that I feel nice about, but dunno what for.
+1 to "get shit done". Sometimes you just wing it and learn as you go along. Don't scream at someone if you think they spent Nxt badly. We're breaking a lot of new ground, we may not know what's good or bad yet. Main thing imo is whether we learn from what we do and how we spend.
I really liked Salsa's Berlin conference AAR (after action review), we should do this more, collect the knowledge and pass it down.
Quote
PS, I have a Nxt crypto audit underway, more details to follow.
Woo, great news!
For this, CfB said something like "they can send their transactions to trusted nodes for immediate confirmations". Could it be, he talked about trust?
I've never said this. U confuse me with Anon136.
Ah, right. Anon is BCNext, and he said it. I mixed that up.
Currently, there is only 1 account that is able to forge at a certain time.
In the future, there shall be n accounts to do so in order to avoid DoS attacks.
Hmm, I need to look up where I read that...
In the future, there shall be n accounts to do so in order to avoid DoS attacks.
Hmm, I need to look up where I read that...
Forging Groups.
I'll try again...
Would one solution be to have a sequence of nodes, where the next 'n' forging nodes are always known not necessarily in parallel but in close sequence, so node 1 identifies node 2 and node 2 identifies node 3 (based on 1 & 2), node 3 identifies 4 (based on 1,2,3), this would create a forging mesh within the network and clients could choose which node to send to based on latency and forging window. (mobile networks and phones do something like this all the time - yes I know about dropped calls its not perfect!)
The choice of node not just based on the current params but also its awareness of the network topography would mean a continual distribution of nodes resulting in statistically a node being close in latency and forging window to a client that wanted to transact...
Depending on the capacity required the nodes would seek an optimum connection with other nodes to achieve that capacity, also if the network can advertise its current processing capacity based on its current demand and ask for more nodes who might be sleeping because not needed before.
You don't have to deploy static network models like hub/spoke or regional or whatever...
Normally people think the a system is stronger than any one single part but what I read here is how for a moment one part has to stand out from all the rest and that makes it vulnerable.
Would one solution be to have a sequence of nodes, where the next 'n' forging nodes are always known not necessarily in parallel but in close sequence, so node 1 identifies node 2 and node 2 identifies node 3 (based on 1 & 2), node 3 identifies 4 (based on 1,2,3), this would create a forging mesh within the network and clients could choose which node to send to based on latency and forging window. (mobile networks and phones do something like this all the time - yes I know about dropped calls its not perfect!)
The choice of node not just based on the current params but also its awareness of the network topography would mean a continual distribution of nodes resulting in statistically a node being close in latency and forging window to a client that wanted to transact...
Depending on the capacity required the nodes would seek an optimum connection with other nodes to achieve that capacity, also if the network can advertise its current processing capacity based on its current demand and ask for more nodes who might be sleeping because not needed before.
You don't have to deploy static network models like hub/spoke or regional or whatever...
Normally people think the a system is stronger than any one single part but what I read here is how for a moment one part has to stand out from all the rest and that makes it vulnerable.
This is why we need groups of forging accounts.
ARRRGHHH NO!!! THIS IS NOT ABOUT POOLS
This is about nodes having a more intelligent relationship with other nodes rather than the primitive one we have now...
See pages back on self optimising networks.
Even in the ether or whatever the internet is there are physical relationships defining the connections between nodes, define rules for which nodes establish which connections based on physics and node behaviour and you create a strong network or mesh... add a bit more where this mesh tells the clients how to work and they know where to send their transaction to get it processed fastest... there will be some collisions but as long as there are no hotspots (which the network will adjust for anyway if it can)...
You need NXT in a node to make it a strong node (aka pools) but this is about creating a strong and responsive network of nodes.
Texas Bitcoin Conference NXT Marketing Brochure
I would like to thank bitcoinpaul, w4llace, LiQio, EvilDave and especially mvag for their prompt and generous assistance in revising my primitive, clumsy attempt at an NXT marketing brochure into this thing of beauty:
http://nxt.sx/images/resources/NXT-Brochure-4.pdf
I would like to thank bitcoinpaul, w4llace, LiQio, EvilDave and especially mvag for their prompt and generous assistance in revising my primitive, clumsy attempt at an NXT marketing brochure into this thing of beauty:
http://nxt.sx/images/resources/NXT-Brochure-4.pdf
Small typo: It's Johns Hopkins University, not John Hopkins.
Just joining to correct this type-o shows COMMITMENT!
Well done, sir
Wow! Just found that NRS is spamming my temp folder with hundreds empty folders like this
Code:
jetty-0.0.0.0-7874-root-_-any-8199114305604189838.dir
For this, CfB said something like "they can send their transactions to trusted nodes for immediate confirmations". Could it be, he talked about trust?
I've never said this. U confuse me with Anon136.
In order to reduce the somewhat bad atmosphere in that thread, I would like to mention that besides all the criticism about the setup process of NXT, we still rely on the aforementioned centralized update and source code management mechanism.
Furthermore, we should be patient as is BCNext, CfB and JL with us. We trusted them for a long time and I do not see why we should change that now. If you are uncomfortable with the NXT protocol as described in our Wiki, so think it through as did BCNext. If you are uncomfortable with the implementation, go and see for yourself if it is congruous with the protocol description in the Wiki you thought through.
Just wanted to add that.
Furthermore, we should be patient as is BCNext, CfB and JL with us. We trusted them for a long time and I do not see why we should change that now. If you are uncomfortable with the NXT protocol as described in our Wiki, so think it through as did BCNext. If you are uncomfortable with the implementation, go and see for yourself if it is congruous with the protocol description in the Wiki you thought through.
Just wanted to add that.
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