NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information - page 700.

mthcl

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Activity: 376

Merit: 300

Quote from: CIYAM on February 24, 2014, 12:55:24 PM

Quote from: mthcl on February 24, 2014, 12:39:26 PM

Did I get it correctly? If yes, what happens then (assuming 1 wants to continue with its bad behavior)?

I think you've got it correctly - the reason that 1 can't continue this behavior successfully depends upon his control of the future blocks (which he can't actually *control by himself* due the random nature of crypto hashes).

So the *evil block forger* actually needs *evil friends* to help him. If he has enough friends then he can win but the actual probability of this is why we need a math guy.

OK, it's good that I'm starting to understand something. Sorry for being soooo slow, but that's on purpose

It's better to clear any misunderstanding on an early stage.

To proceed, I need to understand:

1. How the "weight" variable is actually computed?

2. In particular, for what reason the weights on a "bad" branch are supposed to be much smaller than on the main one?

3. Assume that a node sees at least one neighbor with a different version of the blockchain (from the blockchain that our node has). How does it decide, which is the "correct" one?

Then, do I understand correctly, that the main object of interest is the probability distribution of the length of the "bad" branch? That is, we should be able to issue statements like "given that the bad guy has X% of all NXT, he can grow a bad branch of length at least 10 with probability at most 0.00000000003", right?

On the side note, there is probably also a question about penalizing "suspicious" accounts. Because if the rules are too strict, then inevitably your would penalize some good guys too, and so maybe an attacker can invent a strategy to break the network because too many nodes are penalized. Is this a possible issue?

Eadeqa

hero member

Activity: 644

Merit: 500

Quote from: ChuckOne on February 24, 2014, 03:15:55 PM

If that could be solved, the lottery ticket should depend on how long a specific node was online. Here arises the question 'how can other nodes be sure that a specific node has been online this month?'

Instead of 30 days, lets make this time shorter. 24 hours?.12 hours? 6 hours? In that case, you don't have to keep track if the node awarded lottery has been running for 30 days. Just award it randomly to a node that is running at the time the award is given. The winner can be picked totally randomly.

This will entice some people to keep NRS online, just to have a random chance at winning every few hours.

BrianNowhere

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Quote from: ChuckOne on February 24, 2014, 03:15:55 PM

Quote from: BrianNowhere on February 24, 2014, 03:03:01 PM

Quote from: ChuckOne on February 24, 2014, 02:22:22 PM

Quote from: BrianNowhere on February 24, 2014, 02:16:50 PM

Quote from: ChuckOne on February 24, 2014, 12:17:57 PM

Quote from: abctc on February 24, 2014, 02:40:35 AM

Quote from: pandaisftw on February 24, 2014, 02:37:39 AM

IMO, forging is fine. In the future, there will be supernodes (service providers) that are basically be high-bandwidth pools people can lend their stake to. This won't be a problem of centralization, because NXT is resistant even against 90% attacks. So unless 1 single pool gets that much forging power, we will be fine. These high-bandwidth pools can support 1000+ TPS easily.

- agree.

I disagree. Many nodes are important to support the network. It the 'decentralized' part. Few supernodes can easily be shutdown.

This might be a stupid idea, but what if part of all transaction fees went to a huge stockpile somewhere that was given out once a month randomly to someone who is forging. Then the incentive to run an open client would be the chance to win the 'Nxt lottery' that month. I know I'd be hard pressed to shut down my client and throw away my 'lottery ticket'.

Err, am I not sure I completely understand that incentive architecture. Could you rephrase it?

Basically, every time there's a transaction in the network, a fraction of the fee would be sent to a designated NXT account. If there's a lot of transactions this would add up to a nice amount over 30 days or so. Basically this would be awarded like a lottery every month to a random Nxter who ran an open client that month. The question is whether there's any way to verify if someone had been forging during the time period to be eligible. Maybe the reward would go out on a random day/time so that no one would know when it's coming and therefore be motivated to always be running an open client.

I'm just trying to think of ways to motivate people to forge when there's not much incentive to do so if you don't have a lot of stake.
This system would make forging akin to owning a lottery ticket. The odds would be somewhat low to win, but reward high enough to encourage participitation.

Interesting. Let's develop that further.

How could nodes agree on which node has won the lottery?

If that could be solved, the lottery ticket should depend on how long a specific node was online. Here arises the question 'how can other nodes be sure that a specific node has been online this month?'

That question is a bit above my pay grade as I don't know if or how you can verify participation. If not, I would just set it up to pick a random user and then send the reward out by perhaps sending them a block. (also don't know if it's possible to promote someone to the head of the line like that) Then, If they are not there to generate the block then a new random user is chosen. This repeats til someone generates the block and gets the reward. The winning account could be announced daily on nxtcrypo.org or something. In this case it would be important for the time this happens to be totally random. If you are not "home" when the prize comes you are S.O.L. Many people would then go to insane lengths to ensure their client is always open and running. I know that if I was going to reboot my system I'd make sure I opened my NXT on another computer before i did.

Jerical13

full member

Activity: 266

Merit: 100

Quote from: ChuckOne on February 24, 2014, 03:21:12 PM

Quote from: Jerical13 on February 24, 2014, 03:18:11 PM

Not really. Whoever created the currency would have control over its availability. Kind of like You are the FED. Who cares if no one mines. All of the increased value would benefit whoever created the coin. If you had a market or demand. There is more profit in creating a market than mining coins.

I thought the same. Was about writing a PM to CfB if it is possible to create an asset without a private key so that ONLY AT could handle the assets.

Right!!! Any coin that YOU create would cost You the fees of creating it on the AE. Any increase in value would be Yours. You control its availability and there by its value. If You can create a demand. You are probably not going to be successful in doing this by Yourself so You would need a network or a body to help create demand, but you don't need a network of miners. Mining is overrated.

starik69

legendary

Activity: 1367

Merit: 1000

Quote from: Jean-Luc on February 24, 2014, 03:15:08 PM

You need to set nxt.uiServerHost=0.0.0.0 , by default it is 127.0.0.1 so localhost only.

Strange, works on one node, but not on another.
What about my previous question?
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.5335425

ChuckOne

sr. member

Activity: 364

Merit: 250

☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82

Quote from: Mario123 on February 24, 2014, 02:59:39 PM

Here is a really bad mock up (I'm no developer). Do you get the idea, my Nxters? Wouldn't you (and others) love this tool which would actively secure the Nxt network? Lightweight, unobtrusive. Like the dropbox app.

+1440

marek3ball

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Activity: 180

Merit: 100

Quote from: Mario123 on February 24, 2014, 02:59:39 PM

Quote from: Mario123 on February 24, 2014, 03:38:59 AM

Pump

Quote from: Mario123 on February 17, 2014, 06:43:30 AM

Who is able to develop a lightweight NXT tool for Windows and Mac, which sits just in your taskbar/menubar (see picture as an example)?

Installing and running this little tool should be hassle free. You can lookup your account, use main Nxt functions (like sending NXT, messaging), activate/deactivate forging right from the menu and you see some general blockchain stats.

That way, we could promote this little gadget as a simple and lightweight tool which runs smoothly in the background, forging for you (or not) and securing the Nxt network.

http://cdn.osxdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/desktop-utility-osx-lion.jpg
http://cloud.addictivetips.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Window-On-Top.png

(I'm no windows user. Do windows user still have this little apps in the task bar? Or is there a modern equivalent, like a gadget on the desktop?)

Since this is so OS-special, maybe two different developers for Windows and Mac. Come on, guys. Raise your hand for this project!

Here is a really bad mock up (I'm no developer). Do you get the idea, my Nxters? Wouldn't you (and others) love this tool which would actively secure the Nxt network? Lightweight, unobtrusive. Like the dropbox app.

Like the dropbox app ... simply DropCoin app

It would be great to have this in wesleyh's client.

ChuckOne

sr. member

Activity: 364

Merit: 250

☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82

Quote from: Jerical13 on February 24, 2014, 03:18:11 PM

Not really. Whoever created the currency would have control over its availability. Kind of like You are the FED. Who cares if no one mines. All of the increased value would benefit whoever created the coin. If you had a market or demand. There is more profit in creating a market than mining coins.

I thought the same. Was about writing a PM to CfB if it is possible to create an asset without a private key so that ONLY AT could handle the assets.

zorke

full member

Activity: 238

Merit: 100

Quote from: ChuckOne on February 24, 2014, 01:49:32 PM

Quote from: zman910 on February 24, 2014, 01:41:55 PM

Nxt seems so promising. Looking forward to joining and buying some coins.

So, do it.

You could also run a node to secure the network and familiarize yourself with the technology.

Welcome aboard

Jerical13

full member

Activity: 266

Merit: 100

Quote from: jl777 on February 24, 2014, 03:09:26 PM

Quote from: Jerical13 on February 24, 2014, 02:55:33 PM

Quote from: Damelon on February 24, 2014, 02:21:05 PM

Quote from: ChuckOne on February 24, 2014, 02:13:44 PM

Quote from: jl777 on February 24, 2014, 02:07:54 PM

I will be coming out with "coins" that are actually NXT AE assets that can be mined by CPU. Every miner will need to be running a NXT node. If there is any level of market for such a coin the miners will start mining by the droves. Since the market for it is AE, we can always jump start the market by subsidizing the prices during the early days in order to ensure enough network capacity

This is another great service on top of NXT (besides the NXTopia) that stimulates the AE. +1

I like this very much.
it allows us to keep the "miners" on board and still helps secure the network without changing the core mechanics.

Elegant!

Would mining be needed for coins created on the exchange? I thought you could just "create" assets.

It would have no value if there were a billion available to be sold, so nobody would mine that. I have to make the Asset scarce so that it behaves like PoW coin inventory, well I dont like all pre-mine, etc. so the good news is that we can define how the mining works. Just need some tech to enforce the rules. If you think about it, even bitcoin can one day say, hey we removed the cap and now there can be 21 billion of them. There is nothing that prevents that other than the social contract, and also the fact that it would instantly destroy all credibility makes it an extremely illogical and unlikely event. As long as we can create the same dynamic with NXTcoins, it will work like other PoW coins.

James

Not really. Whoever created the currency would have control over its availability. Kind of like You are the FED. Who cares if no one mines. All of the increased value would benefit whoever created the coin. If you had a market or demand. There is more profit in creating a market than mining coins.

BrianNowhere

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Quote from: Eadeqa on February 24, 2014, 03:09:50 PM

Quote from: BrianNowhere on February 24, 2014, 03:03:01 PM

Basically, every time there's a transaction in the network, a fraction of the fee would be sent to a designated NXT account. If there's a lot of transactions this would add up to a nice amount over 30 days or so. Basically this would be awarded like a lottery every month to a random Nxter who ran an open client that month. The question is whether there's any way to verify if someone had been forging during the time period to be eligible. Maybe the reward would go out on a random day/time so that no one would know when it's coming and therefore be motivated to always be running an open client.

Interesting idea. Yes, I think it will work. Why 30 days? 24 hours would be enough

Any period of time would be fine. As long as the reward is high enough that people would be motivated to forge just to have a shot at collecting it.

ChuckOne

sr. member

Activity: 364

Merit: 250

☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82

Quote from: BrianNowhere on February 24, 2014, 03:03:01 PM

Quote from: ChuckOne on February 24, 2014, 02:22:22 PM

Quote from: BrianNowhere on February 24, 2014, 02:16:50 PM

Quote from: ChuckOne on February 24, 2014, 12:17:57 PM

Quote from: abctc on February 24, 2014, 02:40:35 AM

Quote from: pandaisftw on February 24, 2014, 02:37:39 AM

IMO, forging is fine. In the future, there will be supernodes (service providers) that are basically be high-bandwidth pools people can lend their stake to. This won't be a problem of centralization, because NXT is resistant even against 90% attacks. So unless 1 single pool gets that much forging power, we will be fine. These high-bandwidth pools can support 1000+ TPS easily.

- agree.

I disagree. Many nodes are important to support the network. It the 'decentralized' part. Few supernodes can easily be shutdown.

This might be a stupid idea, but what if part of all transaction fees went to a huge stockpile somewhere that was given out once a month randomly to someone who is forging. Then the incentive to run an open client would be the chance to win the 'Nxt lottery' that month. I know I'd be hard pressed to shut down my client and throw away my 'lottery ticket'.

Err, am I not sure I completely understand that incentive architecture. Could you rephrase it?

Basically, every time there's a transaction in the network, a fraction of the fee would be sent to a designated NXT account. If there's a lot of transactions this would add up to a nice amount over 30 days or so. Basically this would be awarded like a lottery every month to a random Nxter who ran an open client that month. The question is whether there's any way to verify if someone had been forging during the time period to be eligible. Maybe the reward would go out on a random day/time so that no one would know when it's coming and therefore be motivated to always be running an open client.

I'm just trying to think of ways to motivate people to forge when there's not much incentive to do so if you don't have a lot of stake.
This system would make forging akin to owning a lottery ticket. The odds would be somewhat low to win, but reward high enough to encourage participitation.

Interesting. Let's develop that further.

How could nodes agree on which node has won the lottery?

If that could be solved, the lottery ticket should depend on how long a specific node was online. Here arises the question 'how can other nodes be sure that a specific node has been online this month?'

Jean-Luc

sr. member

Activity: 392

Merit: 250

Quote from: starik69 on February 24, 2014, 03:11:13 PM

Quote from: redsn0w on February 24, 2014, 03:02:55 PM

so this is your original Allowed.userhost ? code :

I copied working in 0.7.6 string to nxt.properties like this:

Code:

nxt.allowedUserHosts=127.0.0.1; localhost; 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1; 192.168.1.2; etc;

and nothing works.

You need to set nxt.uiServerHost=0.0.0.0 , by default it is 127.0.0.1 so localhost only.

dasomsos314

newbie

Activity: 51

Merit: 0

Oh.Its 0.8.0 now,the update is too fast!!!!

opticalcarrier

full member

Activity: 238

Merit: 100

Ive edited wiki to include SSL instructions for 0.8.x and on, and am happy with that part.

Ive also added a page on the new nxt-default.properties file, but wiki markup is fuxxoring it all up. Can I get a wiki editor to go to http://wiki.nxtcrypto.org/wiki/Nxt-default_properties_configuration_file and make it not show # characters as lists? I tried using the < code > tags but that didnt work

wesleyh

sr. member

Activity: 308

Merit: 250

Hey guys,

To those that have tried my web client http://nxtra.org/nxt-client ; A beta version is now available for download here:

http://nxtra.org/nxt-client/dev.zip

Unzip, move the dev folder to nxt/html/tools/dev

Then go to http://localhost:7876/dev

This is assuming you have 0.8.1e installed (it will not work correctly on older versions!) - do not try

I suggest you connect to TestNet first though; in the upper left corner you can switch between TestNet and localhost. Try everything out in TestNet first, when you are comfortable you can connect locally. There may still be errors in the code, it's a beta after all.

Not everything is done yet, and Internet Explorer is completely untested. I suggest you use either chrome/firefox or safari for now.

Also need to do some more interactive updating after submission of forms, etc.

if you want, you can send me a message there via the alias wesleynxt (just open the send message dialog and type wesleynxt in the account field). Messages are not yet encrypted.

Let me know what you think.

Jerical13

full member

Activity: 266

Merit: 100

Quote from: Damelon on February 24, 2014, 02:56:58 PM

Quote from: Jerical13 on February 24, 2014, 02:55:33 PM

Quote from: Damelon on February 24, 2014, 02:21:05 PM

Quote from: ChuckOne on February 24, 2014, 02:13:44 PM

Quote from: jl777 on February 24, 2014, 02:07:54 PM

I will be coming out with "coins" that are actually NXT AE assets that can be mined by CPU. Every miner will need to be running a NXT node. If there is any level of market for such a coin the miners will start mining by the droves. Since the market for it is AE, we can always jump start the market by subsidizing the prices during the early days in order to ensure enough network capacity

This is another great service on top of NXT (besides the NXTopia) that stimulates the AE. +1

I like this very much.
it allows us to keep the "miners" on board and still helps secure the network without changing the core mechanics.

Elegant!

Would mining be needed for coins created on the exchange? I thought you could just "create" assets.

It's just this particular coin that can be mined.
It's not inherent in the system.

I see. So you are going to use the AE as the exclusive exchange for this coin. correct? Pretty smart. But really If you could just generate the coins with out mining, actually on the network, it would save a lot of trouble with mining. Creating a demand would be the tricky part. But with cryptos being accepted as they are even that seems not that far fetched. California recently passed some Legislation making cryptos legal tender making contracts in cryptos binding Cheesy

So your idea of creating a coin to market on the exchange is promising I guess either way that you decide to do it. But my thought is to spend effort and resources on creating a demand and to just create the currency into existence with out mining. do you have any ideas about a market for the coin? (i.e. Potcoin. Sexcoin, some other specialized market?)

starik69

legendary

Activity: 1367

Merit: 1000

Quote from: redsn0w on February 24, 2014, 03:02:55 PM

so this is your original Allowed.userhost ? code :

I copied working in 0.7.6 string to nxt.properties like this:

Code:

nxt.allowedUserHosts=127.0.0.1; localhost; 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1; 192.168.1.2; etc;

and nothing works.

Eadeqa

hero member

Activity: 644

Merit: 500

Quote from: BrianNowhere on February 24, 2014, 03:03:01 PM

Basically, every time there's a transaction in the network, a fraction of the fee would be sent to a designated NXT account. If there's a lot of transactions this would add up to a nice amount over 30 days or so. Basically this would be awarded like a lottery every month to a random Nxter who ran an open client that month. The question is whether there's any way to verify if someone had been forging during the time period to be eligible. Maybe the reward would go out on a random day/time so that no one would know when it's coming and therefore be motivated to always be running an open client.

Interesting idea. Yes, I think it will work. Why 30 days? 24 hours would be enough

jl777

legendary

Activity: 1176

Merit: 1134

Quote from: Jerical13 on February 24, 2014, 02:55:33 PM

Quote from: Damelon on February 24, 2014, 02:21:05 PM

Quote from: ChuckOne on February 24, 2014, 02:13:44 PM

Quote from: jl777 on February 24, 2014, 02:07:54 PM

I will be coming out with "coins" that are actually NXT AE assets that can be mined by CPU. Every miner will need to be running a NXT node. If there is any level of market for such a coin the miners will start mining by the droves. Since the market for it is AE, we can always jump start the market by subsidizing the prices during the early days in order to ensure enough network capacity

This is another great service on top of NXT (besides the NXTopia) that stimulates the AE. +1

I like this very much.
it allows us to keep the "miners" on board and still helps secure the network without changing the core mechanics.

Elegant!

Would mining be needed for coins created on the exchange? I thought you could just "create" assets.

It would have no value if there were a billion available to be sold, so nobody would mine that. I have to make the Asset scarce so that it behaves like PoW coin inventory, well I dont like all pre-mine, etc. so the good news is that we can define how the mining works. Just need some tech to enforce the rules. If you think about it, even bitcoin can one day say, hey we removed the cap and now there can be 21 billion of them. There is nothing that prevents that other than the social contract, and also the fact that it would instantly destroy all credibility makes it an extremely illogical and unlikely event. As long as we can create the same dynamic with NXTcoins, it will work like other PoW coins.

James

Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information - page 700. (Read 2761645 times)