Obyte: Totally new consensus algorithm + private untraceable payments - page 104.

Thul

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Quote from: adaseb on October 20, 2018, 06:18:03 PM

Quote from: pineapple express on October 20, 2018, 04:41:42 AM

wow nice pump today for gbyte on cryptox Shocked

I am looking at it on Bittrex and there is a small 10% bump in price but nothing to be excited about. Currently the daily volume is only 6BTC so it basically means that the GBYTE market at the moment is very ill liquid.

I think until we break the 0.016 GBYTE/BTC rate then we are still in a bear market and we can still be making newer lows. Its unfortunate that we didn't get the Binance listing last month.

Speculators don't put money in a coin with an association to a bite gag. Even a listing on Binance does not change this.

Marketing is still miserable, but in the end it's what the gamblers are into, because you can hardly actually apply a project so far.

CryptoUnicornRider

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Quote from: CryptoUnicornRider on October 19, 2018, 01:07:31 PM

Quote from: barborrico on October 19, 2018, 12:07:49 PM

Wild witness wasting bytes appeared!
https://i.imgur.com/pt9JFMv.png

Quote from: CryptoUnicornRider on October 19, 2018, 11:50:21 AM

True, be an official witness requires a high reputation within the Byteball community and the chance to have your witness unit selected as lighthouse is very low to not say inexistant. But this point can't stop you to run your own witness node and to set it in your main wallet to be your own witness and have your transaction confirmed faster. And if your friends trust you, you can be their permuted witness. And more people trust you, more chances you have to see your witness unit selected as a milestone of the main chain and even give you the hope to be elected as official in future.

Would you trust any individual? I dont know who to trust, so I let the hub/network restrictions decide.

Quote from: CryptoUnicornRider on October 19, 2018, 11:50:21 AM

In plus, running a non-official witness node will create an alternate version of history that could save all the chain integrity in case of unfortunate behaviors by one or more witnesses.

All chain integrity could be harm by unfortunate behaviors by one or more witnesses??!?!? Really??

Quote from: CryptoUnicornRider on October 19, 2018, 11:50:21 AM

By the way, in my interpretation, the majority of witnesses means 6+1.

ups

Well, if you don't trust yourself barborrico, who can you trust ;-)

Honnest witnesses are here to warranty the chain integrity as lighthouses/milestones. And as I stated to pineapple express, bad behaviors can be detected by honnest witnesses. For instance, if dishonnest witnesses collude in an attempt to rewrite history, this foolish act will inevitabily generate orphan units and that breaks the chain integrity of these units until the genesis unit. Honnest witnesses will then select a parallel history to keep chain integrity.

Sorry barborrico and pinneapple express,

Small imprecision, it's not only honest witnesses that can detect bad behaviors and rupture of chain integrity but also normal nodes. So, normal nodes can change their path until older witness-authored units or worst until the genesis unit through alternate chains.

adaseb

legendary

Activity: 3808

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Quote from: pineapple express on October 20, 2018, 04:41:42 AM

wow nice pump today for gbyte on cryptox Shocked

I am looking at it on Bittrex and there is a small 10% bump in price but nothing to be excited about. Currently the daily volume is only 6BTC so it basically means that the GBYTE market at the moment is very ill liquid.

I think until we break the 0.016 GBYTE/BTC rate then we are still in a bear market and we can still be making newer lows. Its unfortunate that we didn't get the Binance listing last month.

meterse

copper member

Activity: 226

Merit: 8

Quote from: ?? on ??

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tarmo888

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Quote from: pineapple express on October 20, 2018, 04:41:42 AM

wow nice pump today for gbyte on cryptox Shocked

Nothing special about it, most markets for 24h are in green.

pineapple express

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wow nice pump today for gbyte on cryptox Shocked

CryptoUnicornRider

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Quote from: barborrico on October 19, 2018, 02:53:29 PM

Quote from: CryptoUnicornRider on October 19, 2018, 01:37:52 PM

And yes, the distinction is pretty subtile and the perception of witnesses true role is complex as you stated.

I think the consensus is more about the perception of who is honest or not than about the witnesses. Witnesses units are just milestones (and assistants to validate previous transactions as fast as possible) in the path until the genesis unit which allows normal nodes to selected the best/main chain.

But, imo, you can't say "they are just milestones" when they are a key element. The referee of the match. The flow that makes transactions confirm and root them into reality. The path that all users follow to achieve finality of data they post.

Can you have a formal match without referee? No.

They are THE milestones.

Also I wanted to share another thing.

"well, we dont need to focus on tps because low usage...". But I see it differently:

Can be presented byteball to, for example, google, and ask them to be a witness, with a transaction platform which "only" achieves 15tps and clogs up at 20? NO.

Can be a good advertising the real tps amount after improvements? YES YES definitely yes.

These milestones are key elements for normal nodes due to their reputation of honesty and because they immune the network against some kinds of attacks. But pathes choose by normal nodes don't need to cross all the witnesses (majority is enough) and in fact they can be parallel until the main chain jonction. In worst case scenario, the jonction will occur only at the genesis unit.

It's hypothetical, and deserves Tony confirmation, but I think that it could be possible to have a formal match even without "referees" because the normal nodes will choose the best path, from their own point of view, until the genesis unit. Unfortunately, the path could be pretty long and could cross the path of bad players. That's why Tony introduced the witnesses concept as a shortcut until the genesis unit and to immune the network against attacks.

Well, TPS is a complex question. I don't think to be able to give you a good answer because I agree at same time with the previous answer and with your position. I can just hope to be myself working on an improvement ^_^;

barborrico

jr. member

Activity: 111

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Quote from: CryptoUnicornRider on October 19, 2018, 01:37:52 PM

And yes, the distinction is pretty subtile and the perception of witnesses true role is complex as you stated.

I think the consensus is more about the perception of who is honest or not than about the witnesses. Witnesses units are just milestones (and assistants to validate previous transactions as fast as possible) in the path until the genesis unit which allows normal nodes to selected the best/main chain.

But, imo, you can't say "they are just milestones" when they are a key element. The referee of the match. The flow that makes transactions confirm and root them into reality. The path that all users follow to achieve finality of data they post.

Can you have a formal match without referee? No.

They are THE milestones.

Also I wanted to share another thing.

"well, we dont need to focus on tps because low usage...". But I see it differently:

Can be presented byteball to, for example, google, and ask them to be a witness, with a transaction platform which "only" achieves 15tps and clogs up at 20? NO.

Can be a good advertising the real tps amount after improvements? YES YES definitely yes.

CryptoUnicornRider

newbie

Activity: 36

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Quote from: barborrico on October 19, 2018, 01:26:31 PM

Quote from: CryptoUnicornRider on October 19, 2018, 01:16:43 PM

Quote from: barborrico on October 19, 2018, 01:05:29 PM

Quote from: CryptoUnicornRider on October 19, 2018, 12:30:23 PM

Yes and no. I think it's a matter of interpretation. A witness who doesn't post frequently enough is, technically, useless for the network integrity and to assist normal nodes to have their transactions validated as fast as possible. So, that means this lazy witness is potentially a bad witness and should be exclude at term. A temporary lack of posting could be obviously tolerated when there are technical reasons but it should be limited in time.

So, in my opinion, a witness has a mandatory behavior to be selected/elected as a good witness.

A witness is incentivized to post frequently enough. This is not the same as having mandatory behavior.

Technically, if 7 witnesses stop posting, network halts. Due to a law enforcement, they could have to do it, who knows... Witnesses have to be very distributed over the world.

I think almost all users/all potential users don't care about witnesses selection, like me. They will accept whatever byteball foundation say. Or better said, what byteball.org/bb says regarding to witnesses list choices.

As non-official witness, you definitely don't care about the incentives because you don't receive them.

No, network will not halt if 7 witnesses are down. But normal nodes will take more time to define their best chain until the genesis unit.

That's why, all of people who care about Byteball network should honnestly consider to run a non official witness and set it as permuted witness for our own wallet and give our non official witness address to our friends.

Plan the worst to get the best.

Thank you again for your time

I am not saying that is not going to work, it is simply that I would call "distributed trust" instead of "decentralized trust", because anyone can easily see 12 witness as 12 central points.

Byteball is a distributed database with open access and distributed consensus amongst 12 witnesses.

You're welcome. And thank you for the previous compliment, that means my readings pay :-)
I'm just an admirator of the master creation ^_^;

And yes, the distinction is pretty subtile and the perception of witnesses true role is complex as you stated.

I think the consensus is more about the perception of who is honest or not than about the witnesses. Witnesses units are just milestones (and assistants to validate previous transactions as fast as possible) in the path until the genesis unit which allows normal nodes to select the best/main chain.

barborrico

jr. member

Activity: 111

Merit: 2

Quote from: CryptoUnicornRider on October 19, 2018, 01:16:43 PM

Quote from: barborrico on October 19, 2018, 01:05:29 PM

Quote from: CryptoUnicornRider on October 19, 2018, 12:30:23 PM

Yes and no. I think it's a matter of interpretation. A witness who doesn't post frequently enough is, technically, useless for the network integrity and to assist normal nodes to have their transactions validated as fast as possible. So, that means this lazy witness is potentially a bad witness and should be exclude at term. A temporary lack of posting could be obviously tolerated when there are technical reasons but it should be limited in time.

So, in my opinion, a witness has a mandatory behavior to be selected/elected as a good witness.

A witness is incentivized to post frequently enough. This is not the same as having mandatory behavior.

Technically, if 7 witnesses stop posting, network halts. Due to a law enforcement, they could have to do it, who knows... Witnesses have to be very distributed over the world.

I think almost all users/all potential users don't care about witnesses selection, like me. They will accept whatever byteball foundation say. Or better said, what byteball.org/bb says regarding to witnesses list choices.

As non-official witness, you definitely don't care about the incentives because you don't receive them.

No, network will not halt if 7 witnesses are down. But normal nodes will take more time to define their best chain until the genesis unit.

That's why, all of people who care about Byteball network should honnestly consider to run a non official witness and set it as permuted witness for our own wallet and give our non official witness address to our friends.

Plan the worst to get the best.

Thank you again for your time

I am not saying that is not going to work, it is simply that I would call "distributed trust" instead of "decentralized trust", because anyone can easily see 12 witness as 12 central points.

Byteball is a distributed database with open access and distributed consensus amongst 12 high reputable witnesses.

CryptoUnicornRider

newbie

Activity: 36

Merit: 0

Quote from: barborrico on October 19, 2018, 01:05:29 PM

Quote from: CryptoUnicornRider on October 19, 2018, 12:30:23 PM

Yes and no. I think it's a matter of interpretation. A witness who doesn't post frequently enough is, technically, useless for the network integrity and to assist normal nodes to have their transactions validated as fast as possible. So, that means this lazy witness is potentially a bad witness and should be exclude at term. A temporary lack of posting could be obviously tolerated when there are technical reasons but it should be limited in time.

So, in my opinion, a witness has a mandatory behavior to be selected/elected as a good witness.

A witness is incentivized to post frequently enough. This is not the same as having mandatory behavior.

Technically, if 7 witnesses stop posting, network halts. Due to a law enforcement, they could have to do it, who knows... Witnesses have to be very distributed over the world.

I think almost all users/all potential users don't care about witnesses selection, like me. They will accept whatever byteball foundation say. Or better said, what byteball.org/bb says regarding to witnesses list choices.

As non-official witness, you definitely don't care about the incentives because you don't receive them.

No, network will not halt if 7 witnesses are down. But normal nodes will take more time to define their best chain until the genesis unit.

That's why, all people who care about Byteball network should honnestly consider to run a non official witness and set it as permuted witness for our own wallet and give our non official witness address to our friends.

Plan the worst to get the best.

barborrico

jr. member

Activity: 111

Merit: 2

Quote from: CryptoUnicornRider on October 19, 2018, 01:07:31 PM

Well, if you don't trust yourself barborrico, who can you trust ;-)

Honnest witnesses are here to warranty the chain integrity as lighthouses/milestones. And as I stated to pineapple express, bad behaviors can be detected by honnest witnesses. For instance, if dishonnest witnesses collude in an attempt to rewrite history, this foolish act will inevitabily generate orphan units and that breaks the chain integrity of these units until the genesis unit. Honnest witnesses will then select a parallel history to keep chain integrity.

Oh, now I see it, thank you so much for all your responses, you sound like tony talking lol.

CryptoUnicornRider

newbie

Activity: 36

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Quote from: barborrico on October 19, 2018, 12:07:49 PM

Wild witness wasting bytes appeared!
https://i.imgur.com/pt9JFMv.png

Quote from: CryptoUnicornRider on October 19, 2018, 11:50:21 AM

True, be an official witness requires a high reputation within the Byteball community and the chance to have your witness unit selected as lighthouse is very low to not say inexistant. But this point can't stop you to run your own witness node and to set it in your main wallet to be your own witness and have your transaction confirmed faster. And if your friends trust you, you can be their permuted witness. And more people trust you, more chances you have to see your witness unit selected as a milestone of the main chain and even give you the hope to be elected as official in future.

Would you trust any individual? I dont know who to trust, so I let the hub/network restrictions decide.

Quote from: CryptoUnicornRider on October 19, 2018, 11:50:21 AM

In plus, running a non-official witness node will create an alternate version of history that could save all the chain integrity in case of unfortunate behaviors by one or more witnesses.

All chain integrity could be harm by unfortunate behaviors by one or more witnesses??!?!? Really??

Quote from: CryptoUnicornRider on October 19, 2018, 11:50:21 AM

By the way, in my interpretation, the majority of witnesses means 6+1.

ups

Well, if you don't trust yourself barborrico, who can you trust ;-)

Honnest witnesses are here to warranty the chain integrity as lighthouses/milestones. And as I stated to pineapple express, bad behaviors can be detected by honnest witnesses. For instance, if dishonnest witnesses collude in an attempt to rewrite history, this foolish act will inevitabily generate orphan units and that breaks the chain integrity of these units until the genesis unit. Honnest witnesses will then select a parallel history to keep chain integrity.

barborrico

jr. member

Activity: 111

Merit: 2

Quote from: CryptoUnicornRider on October 19, 2018, 12:30:23 PM

Yes and no. I think it's a matter of interpretation. A witness who doesn't post frequently enough is, technically, useless for the network integrity and to assist normal nodes to have their transactions validated as fast as possible. So, that means this lazy witness is potentially a bad witness and should be exclude at term. A temporary lack of posting could be obviously tolerated when there are technical reasons but it should be limited in time.

So, in my opinion, a witness has a mandatory behavior to be selected/elected as a good witness.

A witness is incentivized to post frequently enough. This is not the same as having mandatory behavior.

Technically, if 7 witnesses stop posting, network halts. Due to a law enforcement, they could have to do it, who knows... Witnesses have to be very distributed over the world.

I think almost all users/all potential users don't care about witnesses selection, like me. They will accept whatever byteball foundation say. Or better said, what byteball.org/bb says regarding to witnesses list choices.

CryptoUnicornRider

newbie

Activity: 36

Merit: 0

Quote from: barborrico on October 19, 2018, 12:07:49 PM

Wild unknown witness wasting bytes appeared!
https://i.imgur.com/pt9JFMv.png

Quote from: CryptoUnicornRider on October 19, 2018, 11:50:21 AM

A witness node differs from normal nodes by its mandatory behavior. A witness node has to post periodically units on the chain to validate as fast as possible previous transactions (from normal nodes) by referencing them as parents.

Hmmm afaik, a witness has no mandatory behavior. They post each 100 units or less in order to receive payload bytes, but they can no posting at all. Am I wrong? I do not remember reading that on the whitepaper.

Yes and no. I think it's a matter of interpretation. A witness who doesn't post frequently enough is, technically, useless for the network integrity and to assist normal nodes to have their transactions validated as fast as possible. So, that means this lazy witness is potentially a bad witness and should be exclude at term. A temporary lack of posting could be obviously tolerated when there are technical reasons but it should be limited in time.

So, in my opinion, a witness has a mandatory behavior to be selected/elected as a good witness.

barborrico

jr. member

Activity: 111

Merit: 2

Wild witness wasting bytes appeared!

Quote from: CryptoUnicornRider on October 19, 2018, 11:50:21 AM

A witness node differs from normal nodes by its mandatory behavior. A witness node has to post periodically units on the chain to validate as fast as possible previous transactions (from normal nodes) by referencing them as parents.

Hmmm afaik, a witness has no mandatory behavior. They post each 100 units or less in order to receive payload bytes from units referencing them, but they can no posting at all. Am I wrong? I do not remember reading that on the whitepaper.

Quote from: CryptoUnicornRider on October 19, 2018, 11:50:21 AM

True, be an official witness requires a high reputation within the Byteball community and the chance to have your witness unit selected as lighthouse is very low to not say inexistant. But this point can't stop you to run your own witness node and to set it in your main wallet to be your own witness and have your transaction confirmed faster. And if your friends trust you, you can be their permuted witness. And more people trust you, more chances you have to see your witness unit selected as a milestone of the main chain and even give you the hope to be elected as official in future.

Would you trust any individual? I dont know who to trust, so I let the hub/network restrictions decide.

Quote from: CryptoUnicornRider on October 19, 2018, 11:50:21 AM

In plus, running a non-official witness node will create an alternate version of history that could save all the chain integrity in case of unfortunate behaviors by one or more witnesses.

All chain integrity could be harm by unfortunate behaviors by one or more witnesses??!?!? Really??

Quote from: CryptoUnicornRider on October 19, 2018, 11:50:21 AM

By the way, in my interpretation, the majority of witnesses means 6+1.

ups

CryptoUnicornRider

newbie

Activity: 36

Merit: 0

Quote from: barborrico on October 19, 2018, 10:40:41 AM

Quote from: CryptoUnicornRider on October 19, 2018, 09:01:19 AM

Quote from: barborrico on October 19, 2018, 03:34:20 AM

In fact, you have to change marketing seriously. Byteball it is not decentralized, and never will by design.

The cause is simply: when I want to become a witness, I have to ask EVERY NETWORK NODE (controlling byteball main hub would do this easier).
Very different is the case when I want to become a miner, I DON'T HAVE TO ASK ANYONE.
Because of that, PoW is decentralized, and Byteball not.

Byteball is a DISTRIBUTED database with twelve high reputable nodes that help network to reach consensus.

That twelve nodes FORM a single point of failure, and the power those witnesses have over the network is not related to this fact.

Don't pretend to be what you are not.

Hi barborrico,

As I told previously to pineapple express, everybody can run a witness node and set it as its own permuted witness with the possibility of keeping the chain healty until the genesis unit with its own reality perception. Better, we can be the lighthouse of many. So, yes, you can be a non-official witness without asking permission to anyone and who knows if you'll not be one of official witnesses one day.

Bye

Of course, I can TRY to be a witness without asking permission. A witness node does not differ on a normal one. But why doing it? Only a big name can be witness in practice. It does not happen magically. It is related to have a reputation to lose if the witness starts to bad behaving (although only by colluding with another 5 or more). So, no, I can't be a non-official witness. Be elected by nodes is the same as asking for permission to all nodes for being on their witnesses list. I can only have that permission by having a reputation to lose.

I trust byteball.org/bb default hub, if it suggests me a witness change, I will accept.
In any case, I will change my witnesses list if it is incompatible with network.

Hi barborrico,

A witness node differs from normal nodes by its mandatory behavior. A witness node has to post periodically units on the chain to validate as fast as possible previous transactions (from normal nodes) by referencing them as parents.

True, be an official witness requires a high reputation within the Byteball community and the chance to have your witness unit selected as lighthouse is very low to not say inexistant. But this point can't stop you to run your own witness node and to set it in your main wallet to be your own witness and have your transaction confirmed faster. And if your friends trust you, you can be their permuted witness. And more people trust you, more chances you have to see your witness unit selected as a milestone of the main chain and even give you the hope to be elected as official in future.

In plus, running a non-official witness node will create an alternate version of history that could save all the chain integrity in case of unfortunate behaviors by one or more witnesses.

By the way, in my interpretation, the majority of witnesses means 6+1.

Bye

meterse

copper member

Activity: 226

Merit: 8

Quote from: ?? on ??

guys, the scalability of DAG supposed to be much, much better than blockchain?
Is this an advantage of BYTEBALL?

an advantage yes, but IMO the first crpto projects to get real world adoption will not do so because of scalability

100,000 TPS sounds great, but if the only thing it does is send money back and forth between wallets good luck getting people to use the network

barborrico

jr. member

Activity: 111

Merit: 2

Quote from: CryptoUnicornRider on October 19, 2018, 09:01:19 AM

Quote from: barborrico on October 19, 2018, 03:34:20 AM

In fact, you have to change marketing seriously. Byteball it is not decentralized, and never will by design.

The cause is simply: when I want to become a witness, I have to ask EVERY NETWORK NODE (controlling byteball main hub would do this easier).
Very different is the case when I want to become a miner, I DON'T HAVE TO ASK ANYONE.
Because of that, PoW is decentralized, and Byteball not.

Byteball is a DISTRIBUTED database with twelve high reputable nodes that help network to reach consensus.

That twelve nodes FORM a single point of failure, and the power those witnesses have over the network is not related to this fact.

Don't pretend to be what you are not.

Hi barborrico,

As I told previously to pineapple express, everybody can run a witness node and set it as its own permuted witness with the possibility of keeping the chain healty until the genesis unit with its own reality perception. Better, we can be the lighthouse of many. So, yes, you can be a non-official witness without asking permission to anyone and who knows if you'll not be one of official witnesses one day.

Bye

Of course, I can TRY to be a witness without asking permission. A witness node does not differ on a normal one. But why doing it? Only a big name can be witness in practice. It does not happen magically. It is related to have a reputation to lose if the witness starts to bad behaving (although only by colluding with another 5 or more). So, no, I can't be a non-official witness. Be elected by nodes is the same as asking for permission to all nodes for being on their witnesses list. I can only have that permission by having a reputation to lose.

I trust byteball.org/bb default hub, if it suggests me a witness change, I will accept.
In any case, I will change my witnesses list if it is incompatible with network.

Thul

newbie

Activity: 140

Merit: 0

Quote from: whenearth on October 19, 2018, 07:34:57 AM

Quote from: Thul on October 19, 2018, 07:18:44 AM

Quote from: meterse on October 19, 2018, 06:19:05 AM

https://i.imgur.com/0wHC4Pk.png

https://twitter.com/ByteballOrg/status/1053243171260588032

Would it not have been more senseful to announce such an action beforehand?

And then to random recipients. - Welcome nepotism. Roll Eyes

Who the hell is responsible for such marketing? Huh

'random engaged' is not random

That's irrelevant.
It matters the effect on those whose native language is NOT English.

Which is conspicuous: Not the management is criticized for its mistakes, but the critics who point them out.

But the critics are certainly not responsible for the lack of demand...

Topic: Obyte: Totally new consensus algorithm + private untraceable payments - page 104. (Read 1234271 times)