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Topic: Occupy Round Table on Bitcoin - page 4. (Read 10880 times)

hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
December 11, 2011, 09:23:25 PM
What if I believe that the only that matters is what an individual desires?

What if I believe I don't know what is best for other people?
You then believe desires are real things that you can put in a container.
Mirror Neuron Receptors.

what???
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
December 11, 2011, 09:19:36 PM
I guess just show me your data (not a youtube video or philosophical essay) and I'll try to find something wrong with it. If I can't then I will also be about RBE. Worst case scenario is I give my critique and we are both better off for it.
I understand what you're getting at and I have to admit that as far as I know, there are no scientific papers on RBE. If you look at it this way, it's true that the model is not scientific. The only excuse I can offer is that the general idea of an RBE has only really been talked about for a few years.

It hasn't reached the stage yet where we have scientific papers or an actual computer model for such a system. There have been plans for this but this type of development is slow. The best I have to offer is lectures or essays on this, or information on the latest technology (http://www.zeitnews.org/).

I have no doubt though that eventually the idea of an RBE will be put to the test, at least as a real computer model. And in real life as well, in form of a RBE village or city. It needs to be self-sufficient to not be reliant on trade, but even with some trading it can be done if there is funding for such a project. As long as we live in a world that uses money, we need it to create a RBE prototype.

So you have an hypothesis and would like to test it scientifically, but it costs a shitload (in money and mental activity) to actually do so. The majority of people with the money/power have no incentive in changing the status quo, so it is difficult to make happen. That is why it hasn't been done yet. Ok, so stop saying it is based on science then. Logic is also a good basis for making decisions. Just call it what it is. Hopefully, eventually someone with the ability to access the necessary resources will attempt to test the viability of a RBE.

My point is not to equate sociology or economics with physics. Beyond striving to utilize the scientific method, they aren't the same. The systems under study are many orders of magnitude different in complexity.
Brain science is allowing us to understand how we think. Psychology is becoming well researched. Sociology and economics are less useful predictors of behavior.

I am not sure what this means... Please answer my earlier questions about why you believe human society is less complex than the human brain.

Human society is unpredictable. It's like asking why electrical theory is less complex than ToE. There is no sense on postulating theories with little more than correlative data. When we understand ourselves, we can begin to find a ToE for human behavior. That's a long way off. It's simpler to use accepted axioms. Society isn't really complex because it doesn't really even exist. Society is a reification. Religion makes society simple, even if the religion is science.

Even if we accept that people will act how their religion tells them to under normal circumstances, what about when something goes wrong?

What if your idea of sustainability, equality and freedom is wrong?
The whole idea is that the system is designed to improve itself automatically. The indicators we use today to see how an economy is doing are false, such as GDP. In RBE the indicators would be very different. We would of course have sustainability as one indicator and this includes a lot of things such as resource efficiency, energy efficiency, resource scarcity levels etc. But on top of this we would have population happiness, physical health, mental health, crime, education, innovation etc. These would be the guidelines we would use to improve the system. The things that really matter. If you don't agree that these things matter, then RBE is not for you.

Personally I 100% agree with this. I have just cannot think of a way to create an uncorruptable state, and have never heard/read a feasible idea by anyone else either. For that reason, I think any plan that relies upon centralized power will fail.

What if I believe I don't know what is best for other people?
No one knows what is best for other people. But we can find out using science. Ask people, track their consumption and predict. It's not that different from the methods companies use today. They use science to create the products and distribution methods that best meet the demand of their customers. RBE is not all that different but one major difference is that in RBE there are no incentives to artificially create demand for products. Which will radically reduce consumption and improve both our lives and our sustainability as a species.

How will we test these methods without hurting people if something goes wrong? I.e if this were to be a funded experiment you would need an IRB to approve it. If you did it on your own it would piss people off and if you didn't have dudes with guns backing you up (IRB approval) you and your family could be harmed.

*edited grammar
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
December 11, 2011, 09:16:37 PM
What if I believe that the only that matters is what an individual desires?

What if I believe I don't know what is best for other people?
You then believe desires are real things that you can put in a container.
Mirror Neuron Receptors.
legendary
Activity: 2184
Merit: 1056
Affordable Physical Bitcoins - Denarium.com
December 11, 2011, 09:13:07 PM
#99
What if I believe I don't know what is best for other people?
No one knows what is best for other people. But we can find out using science. Ask people, track their consumption and predict. It's not that different from the methods companies use today. They use science to create the products and distribution methods that best meet the demand of their customers. RBE is not all that different but one major difference is that in RBE there are no incentives to create demand for products artificially (by marketing and advertising). This would radically reduce consumption and improve both our lives and our sustainability as a species.
legendary
Activity: 1500
Merit: 1022
I advocate the Zeitgeist Movement & Venus Project.
December 11, 2011, 09:12:44 PM
#98
What if I believe that the only that matters is what an individual desires?

What if I believe I don't know what is best for other people?

If you are unwilling to change your beliefs when you acquire new information and data, then they are ultimately irrelevant. Reality does not persist based on your beliefs.
legendary
Activity: 2184
Merit: 1056
Affordable Physical Bitcoins - Denarium.com
December 11, 2011, 09:01:48 PM
#97
What if your idea of sustainability, equality and freedom is wrong?
The whole idea is that the system is designed to improve itself automatically. The indicators we use today to see how an economy is doing are false, such as GDP. In RBE the indicators would be very different. We would of course have sustainability as one indicator and this includes a lot of things such as resource efficiency, energy efficiency, resource scarcity levels etc. But on top of this we would have population happiness, physical health, mental health, crime, education, innovation etc. These would be the guidelines we would use to improve the system. The things that really matter. If you don't agree that these things matter, then RBE is not for you.
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
December 11, 2011, 08:59:03 PM
#96
My point is not to equate sociology or economics with physics. Beyond striving to utilize the scientific method, they aren't the same. The systems under study are many orders of magnitude different in complexity.
Brain science is allowing us to understand how we think. Psychology is becoming well researched. Sociology and economics are less useful predictors of behavior.

I am not sure what this means... Please answer my earlier questions about why you believe human society is less complex than the human brain.

Human society is unpredictable. It's like asking why electrical theory is less complex than ToE. There is no sense on postulating theories with little more than correlative data. When we understand ourselves, we can begin to find a ToE for human behavior. That's a long way off. It's simpler to use accepted axioms. Society isn't really complex because it doesn't really even exist. Society is a reification. Religion makes society simple, even if the religion is science.
legendary
Activity: 2184
Merit: 1056
Affordable Physical Bitcoins - Denarium.com
December 11, 2011, 08:56:12 PM
#95
I guess just show me your data (not a youtube video or philosophical essay) and I'll try to find something wrong with it. If I can't then I will also be about RBE. Worst case scenario is I give my critique and we are both better off for it.
I understand what you're getting at and I have to admit that as far as I know, there are no scientific papers on RBE. If you look at it this way, it's true that the model is not scientific. The only excuse I can offer is that the general idea of an RBE has only really been talked about for a few years.

It hasn't reached the stage yet where we have scientific papers or an actual computer model for such a system. There have been plans for this but this type of development is slow. The best I have to offer is lectures or essays on this, or information on the latest technology (http://www.zeitnews.org/).

I have no doubt though that eventually the idea of an RBE will be put to the test, at least as a real computer model. And in real life as well, in form of a RBE village or city. It needs to be self-sufficient to not be reliant on trade, but even with some trading it can be done if there is funding for such a project. As long as we live in a world that uses money, we need it to create a RBE prototype.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
December 11, 2011, 08:44:29 PM
#94
My point is not to equate sociology or economics with physics. Beyond striving to utilize the scientific method, they aren't the same. The systems under study are many orders of magnitude different in complexity.
Brain science is allowing us to understand how we think. Psychology is becoming well researched. Sociology and economics are less useful predictors of behavior.

I am not sure what this means... Please answer my earlier questions about why you believe human society is less complex than the human brain.

Yes, everyone would love that. Why do you claim it is based on science though?
Clarify, please. RBE applies scientific method to the whole economy. But science doesn't give us values. The values are sustainability, equality and freedom. I guess there are more values than that, happiness and health apply as well. Based on these values we can choose the indicators that matter and then let science handle the rest.

I guess just show me your data (not a youtube video or philosophical essay) and I'll try to find something wrong with it. If I can't then I will also be about RBE. Worst case scenario is I give my critique and we are both better off for it.
legendary
Activity: 2184
Merit: 1056
Affordable Physical Bitcoins - Denarium.com
December 11, 2011, 08:40:30 PM
#93
Yes, everyone would love that. Why do you claim it is based on science though?
Clarify, please. RBE applies scientific method to the whole economy. But science doesn't give us values. The values are sustainability, equality and freedom. I guess there are more values than that, happiness and health apply as well. Based on these values we can choose the indicators that matter and then let science handle the rest.
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
December 11, 2011, 08:39:23 PM
#92
My point is not to equate sociology or economics with physics. Beyond striving to utilize the scientific method, they aren't the same. The systems under study are many orders of magnitude different in complexity.
Brain science is allowing us to understand how we think. Psychology is becoming well researched. Sociology and economics are less useful predictors of behavior.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
December 11, 2011, 08:36:51 PM
#91
Yes, everyone would love that. Why do you claim it is based on science though?
legendary
Activity: 2184
Merit: 1056
Affordable Physical Bitcoins - Denarium.com
December 11, 2011, 08:31:09 PM
#90
If you guys can accomplish this without guns, I am all for it.

...

I acknowledge all that has been said. Pardon any rudeness on my part. I think all of you guys are nice people. I just hope you don't cease my property and businesses in the future.
I approve this message. I want to confirm that the whole RBE scenario is first and foremost an educational paradigm. I don't blame capitalists nor do I want to seize anything, I just want to explain to people that the whole system is fundamentally flawed. After we experience sufficient value change and achieve critical mass, the society will start changing by itself. The society I would like to live in would be one where we maximize personal freedom while acknowledging that the natural world sets some limits on our activities. And it would be a world with more equality than this one, a world where no one has to live in poverty. This is not utopian, it's achievable. The biggest challenge is overcoming the value system disorder that we are all experiencing, some more than others.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
December 11, 2011, 08:28:57 PM
#89
My point is not to equate sociology or economics with physics. Beyond striving to utilize the scientific method, they aren't the same. The systems under study are many orders of magnitude different in complexity.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
December 11, 2011, 08:25:12 PM
#88
Science is based off data. Most data is noisy. So noisy that most of the time even if you get stat significance and did it yourself you still don't trust it 100% until multiple other groups have replicated it. There is no replication in sociology or economics (and this is the noisiest data of them all). So there is no way to be confident in your science-based decision in the same way you would in an experiment involving a simpler system. Every time a government employs a political or economic policy it is basically experimenting on its citizens. Think about it that way.

Exactly. But try telling this to a physicist. All science has chaos. We are barely beginning to understand the fractal universe. However, we are developing algorithms to filter the noise and find useful data to make predictions.

Try doing sociology and economics at the 5-sigma level. It is not feasible for the foreseeable future.

5-sigma? Cleanliness? Not following.

Sigma refers to standard deviations from the expected value. Science is all about generating data and seeing if you find more than the expected amount of hits further away than an arbitrary number of standard deviations away from the expected value. In the social sciences, as well as biology (which I do), most people will have their results accepted by their peers if they are significant to p<.05  ( 1 in 20 chance of being wrong, which corresponds to about 2 sigma). Physicists are good at math so they use 5-sigma events, which are very rare (1 in 3,488,555). A 5-sigma event (Russian gov't defaulting) is what destroyed LTCM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-Term_Capital_Management by the way.
.

legendary
Activity: 2184
Merit: 1056
Affordable Physical Bitcoins - Denarium.com
December 11, 2011, 08:19:04 PM
#87
For a change we should start from computerizing and automating most of governmental tasks; the more we could optimize it, less it will cost us to run it, less taxes, everyone's happy.
I agree. Massive changes do not happen just like that but we can slowly attempt to nudge the world in the right direction, one baby step at a time. Governments are so massively inefficient that it makes sense to start there. The best way to improve things is to simply make current structures obsolete. Bitcoin is one step forward, it makes a lot of things obsolete. Self-sufficient communities make even more things obsolete. There is a lot we can do to go forward.
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
December 11, 2011, 08:11:53 PM
#86
I acknowledge all that has been said. Pardon any rudeness on my part. I think all of you guys are nice people. I just hope you don't cease my property and businesses in the future.

I may consider building a Walmart where you live and will simply invoke eminent domain. You will be evicted, but with reasonable remuneration, of course. Talk to my lawyer. Capitalism Rulez!  Tongue
legendary
Activity: 2184
Merit: 1056
Affordable Physical Bitcoins - Denarium.com
December 11, 2011, 08:11:11 PM
#85
Inventing a new razor, toothbrush or a vacuum cleaner with no meaningful advancements needs money.

Yes because the advancements mean nothing to you personally, they are useless.
My point was that over 90% of the so called technological advancements in our current society are there because a company has calculated that they can create sufficient demand for that product. Regardless of 1) if there are any actual life improving or resource-efficiency improving qualities in the product and 2) the fact that the demand for the product will be artificially created, by mass advertising.

Real advancements that actually improve things are a different story, but it's obvious as hell that people have natural incentives to improve the products they themselves use. For example, Linus Torvalds created Linux because he wanted a better operating system. But he wanted to give it to others as well. Then others started developing it, leading to a much more advanced product. Real technological development does not necessarily require money as an incentive.
legendary
Activity: 1500
Merit: 1022
I advocate the Zeitgeist Movement & Venus Project.
December 11, 2011, 08:04:27 PM
#84
Regarding Dunbar's number, I would assume that the number of people a person interacts with at an extremely early age conditions the brain to only recognize and relate to a small number of other people. Early childhood has become one of the most overly protected periods of time in a person's life today, and so a child would be limited in the number of people that have substantial and significant interactions with. If children were not treated as property and society at large actually started caring for all children, then the people that they relate to would likely increase. It is only my assumption, however.
legendary
Activity: 2184
Merit: 1056
Affordable Physical Bitcoins - Denarium.com
December 11, 2011, 08:04:06 PM
#83
I would at the very least have to take a job in this society but I would have little say in what I could do and how I could do it. I would probably end up not working at all due to this dissatisfaction. I wouldn't be the only one. I hope you enjoy your society full of bums.
On the contrary, you would have complete freedom in what you choose to work on. With SOME limits of course, if what you want to do requires so much resources or energy that it's a problem for the sustainability of the system. For most imaginable things that you'd want to do this limitation is not an issue and in any case the limitation is very understandable, what we don't have the resources to do, we simply can't do. The natural world sets some limits, this has to be understood before we can build a sustainable society.
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