Topic: [OFFICIAL]Bitfinex.com first Bitcoin P2P lending platform for leverage trading - page 113. (Read 723861 times)

Since this problem I have the message "you can not place new orders" when I try to create an order, for info I have less than 50 orders placed and my position was very small (0.02 BTC) when the problem started. Any idea?   

Hi! I would like to offer some Bitcoins in the Liquidity Providing market , But I can't find the way to do it. I've seen the Offer Swap Tab , but it is just for USD , as far as I'm concerned.

So if anybody could point me where I could offer my Btc as swappable, that would be great.
Thanks

Who said THAT? I had a very specific example of Bitfinex taking 30 seconds between me placing an order and getting market results back. I protested that 30 seconds is just too much.
Okay then. Can you make flash swaps that are loaned by the minute? I saw above how somebody was very happy to have earned much, much more from the less-than-one-day swaps than the standard rate, but then; how about the daytraders?

I observed and checked and yes:
the bitfinex site lag (not the web UI, but the placing and processing of orders) has intermittent lag, choke points.
Sometimes an market order of 0.01 btc is executed quickly, but sometimes... it takes FOUR seconds just to acknowledge that the order was placed.
So I can imagine the same is true for all the API.

Of course, such data lag causes price extremes, as people push in many market orders and all of them will be executed AT ONCE agains an empty orderbook, awarding worst possible outcomes ;-)

It was for a very short time earlier. Everything's now back to normal.

not for me...

Bitfinex down?

Look, you are entitled to make whatever choices you like. We have around 4X the volume of BTC-E, but if you like them better, that is the whole reason for a market. Our volume is increasing daily, and we are closing in on 1 million coins over the trailing 30 days (we currently are at around 966k). You are comparing things that don't exist (The bitcoin trade floor...where? NYSE never offered this).

We have a lot of wonderful customers, who like what we are offering. We have some of the lowest fees, and as far as your swap example, I am confused. If you close your position, you are ending the swap contracts early, the swap provider cannot end it early. As far as fees, you can pick what you would like to pay if you want margin, that is why there is a market. If you are providing swaps, you are only paying fees on profits you have made.

Either way, like I said, pick whatever exchange works best for you. Before I ever started working here, I had already chosen Bitfinex as my preferred exchange. I don't regret that choice, and I still think it is the best platform out there. I am working every  day to make it better.

Thank you for the response.

Two things if I may, Mr. president.

ONE:
a) the problem is at bitfinex and I was stupid enough not to notice it earlier and adequately abuse it like some others did.
b) the problem was noticed before by many others; some of which wanted to trade some 10k or more coins with you. (left)
c) trade floor as in oldschool NYSE
d) you are missing the problem by a mile
e) proper architecture demands a separate order matching server unconnected to the internet, only to the UI server

Now, six:
last time I wrote to btc-e to improve their relationship and cooperation with Bitcoinwisdom.com, they PROMPTLY done so, and extended their public API service. I just pointed out HOW MUCH the trading volume on their site dropped when Bitcoinwisdom went down (or just btc-e connect to bitcoinwisdom.)

seven:
"it isn't hard to be fast when you have such low volume..." -- it has proven to be very hard for you so far

eight:
your swap system has very, very high fees; just because the annual rate is 30%, it doesn't mean it will be my cost. I painstakingly 'bought' some swaps and in 2 hours they were gone. Why? Because I did some small trades and the borrowed dollars were returned, together with huge fees for me. Basically what this means is: "people don't dare to trade and don't put market orders in", which results in lower site turnover than what it would have been. The other option is that you will bleed on the fees heavily. Due to this I'm seriously considering to become a heretic and convert to huobism.

It is really hard, if not impossible, to calculate the FRR from publicly available data unfortunately.

I agree with your points, and I am really glad you are part of this discussion now. That is the most concisely someone has summed up the current problems with the FRR, and it was why I suggested allowing a delta to offset from this current number. The other side of it that we are working on, is creating an FRR that moves more fluidly, this would mean that you couldn't just "set it and forget it" underneath the FRR, because that number would change every hour, and track the market better.

The part that always frustrates me, and why I like your comment, is because you don't have a rate agenda in mind. If the rate lowers without the FRR, you are ok with that. So, it is the most intellectually honest critique. Just wanted to say thanks.

Do you understand the point of having a well-filled order book, In general? You don't seem to.

Margin traders should really be the ones taking you guys to task for this, since they're affected far more than lenders are. The issue is just more visible to lenders.

The problem with the FRR is that it creates a ton of offers at a very specific price point ( the wall ), which becomes so large that any active lenders are going to specifically target that number to undercut (otherwise we simply can't make enough money to be worthwhile).  That means that unless there is a HUGH flash run, the FRR will constantly go down, because all the lends going out are below THAT SPECIFIC point.  By spreading pending loans out along a much wider range, even with millions in pending loans, each specific price point would likely have very little waiting, so active traders would have more flexibility in choosing a target to undercut.  This would create a much more natural moving average, up in heavy demand, down in light demand.  As it is right now, I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of loans are always taken out just a few point below the FRR, which isn't a natural price flow at all, but a permanent strong downward pressure, regardless of current demand.





I wouldn't be able to create my own FRR unless I had access to all active loans via the API. Well, I could probably fudge something pretty close together based on historic market data, etc, but why would I want to?  I'm only interested in algorithms that spread out offers, so loans can go out in a more natural spread.


I disagree completely.  If there would "always be a wall", then why doesn't this carry over to buying and selling coins?  I don't always see walls on the orderbooks, yet we're competing for limited supply and  demand there.  Walls are not common in a traditional market, and are almost always the result of a single entity attempting to manipulate  the market.  Its just in relation to FRR, Bitfinx itself is the manipulator.



We're complaining about the fact that the market feels very controlled and manipulated.  If it were a natural flow market, even if the rates went lower as a result, I wouldn't complain.  I would be happy to compete in a natural market, whatever the result.


Despite my complaints above, I agree with this completely.   That's why I'm still here, and its why I care.  I'd hate to see this become untrue... 

This doesn't imply that at all, what it does imply is that the site that you are using to receive market data may not display it in real time. Secondly, where is this "trade floor" that you can call using a telephone? I have not heard of it, though I did start Satoshi Square in New York, and that was probably the closest there has been to a trading pit. Also, I don't think Microsoft Quickbasic is a matching engine, but I could be wrong about that, I don't use it.

Either way, we have a major upgrade in the works, which has been announced, and should put us solidly in the lead as far as speed, but to be fair, it isn't hard to be fast when you have such low volume...

First off, this was my suggestion a while ago, and NO, that is not what would happen at all, because why would EVERYONE pick '-0.0001%'? Some people would pick  '-0.01%' or -0.02%', and I still don't think that the "wall" is a valid complaint. It means that here is a bunch of offers which NOBODY TOOK. That means someone else's offer was taken. It means that all those using the FRR are NOT competing because they don't have active swaps. I love how people keep saying "you aren't going to get good rates using FRR, you should actively manage or use a bot", and then say that they can't compete with the FRR. If the returns using the FRR are not great, and you can do substantially better by using a bot, then you simply have a situation where the more effort you put in, the better your returns are, which is awesome. Tons of people simply think that "something is better than nothing". I know we all miss the "good old days" when you could offer for much higher rates, but anytime something is very popular like that, the swarm of other people jumping in will always make the returns much lower. Compare the size of the swaps market then with its size now. It continues to grow, because in my opinion, it offers an extremely great risk to reward ratio.

Secondly, is there any way you could add your own FRR calculation to your bot? For example, could I either create or modify a bot that simply duplicates the current FRR calculation and offers at that rate? Again, I think it is interesting, because if everyone simply chose to use that calculation (as they ARE doing right now), the situation would be identical (besides the floating of the rate) and you would still get a "wall". I just think that the "wall" that people are complaining about will always exist in that there are a lot of people competing for a fixed amount of demand, the people willing to go the lowest are the ones who make ANY return, and right now, you have people who are using the FRR in order to passively gain returns staying OUT of that competition at least some of the time (whenever there is a wall). Lastly, if people think that people "undercutting" the FRR "wall" is lowering the rate, they are right, since that would factor into the calculation. Easy, simply enter it above the FRR, and once it gets eaten up, you will get even higher and it keeps rising. This doesn't happen because people are displaying their TRUE minimums and they are much higher than their STATED minimums. If no one wanted to offer a swap underneath the FRR, their would be no offers. So even though some people might complain, others seem to be jumping in front to push that rate lower...

You are assuming that every lender is willing to accept the same interest rate, which is false. I may be willing to undercut more than others to get my offer filled. Or less, and see my offer waiting (like it happens now with FRR).

You're missing my point. Whatever you set your auto-lend to, others will react to the presence of your swap offer and undercut you if they so choose. That's just the nature of the beast... it's a market, people want their offers filled, so undercutting happens all the time. You set your rate to be "FRR minus 0.1", some other guy will set his to be "FRR minus 0.1001" and a fixed rate offer will pop up just below that. The only way you're going to be able to avoid being undercut by other offers is by taking an active hand in placing your offers, or running a bot to do so for you.

Source: I am undercutting you constantly by manually placing fixed-rate offers.

or this has just happened: I placed sell orders at 388 and389 and such and 10-30 seconds later the price climbs up to 390 and NONE of my sell orders were touched, even.

I'M TOUCHED!

The earliest was the order
139003936 at around 385

Basically, this would imply that the Bitfinex order matching engine has a lag or 30-90 seconds, which quite beats the purpose of online trading, you can make a trade by making a phone call to the trade floor in that time.

the 390 came WELL AFTER THAT!

P.S. There is a total of 1352 sell orders right now: let's see how many can a 286/10MHz match up in 100 miliseconds.
...basically, an 286/10MHz would be a slight bit great deal faster while running the software in Microsoft Quickbasic doing this task than bitfinex is currently now. It is easy to see that btc-e has order matching performance somewhere between 100x and 1000x greater than bitfinex. This is amazing and a reason to use btc-e.

Or run a bot like MarginBot  

Others are already undercutting the FRR, I don't know if manually or using a bot. With that option, I'd be able to also automatically undercut them. It would also be better for people taking loans, as there would be more competition for lending.