1. Do you have a system set up to notify BFX staff in the event of a flash crash? You could have text notification to a phone. You might even want to carry a special phone for this.
2. Have you run simulations on this? For instance, it'd be interesting to know what would have happened had you not ending trading. You should be able to calculate how much money traders and lenders would have lost (and compare that to what a few would have gained).
Topic: [OFFICIAL]Bitfinex.com first Bitcoin P2P lending platform for leverage trading - page 254. (Read 723903 times)
February 10, 2014, 04:08:56 PM
February 10, 2014, 03:50:18 PM
Is anyone else having BTC withdrawal issues with Bitfinex? I've placed a withdrawal 7 hours ago; after three hours I sent an email to support and haven't received a response. An earlier post by Giancarlo (sp?) seems to affirm that they're replenishing the hot wallet, but thus far nothing. I received a "Completed transaction" about an hour ago, but receiving wallet still shows no deposit.
just look at the hash you see there and post it on blockchain.info
Maybe your BTC wallet is buggy.
TwinWinNerD,
Thanks for the quick response. The receiving wallet (exchange) is Bitstamp and the Blockchain hash check shows "we could not find any blocks or transactions matching this hash." This is a non-trivial amount of BTC (~30), so I'd like to get to the bottom of it.
Thanks.
Maybe something went wrong. But you can be 100% sure that you will get those BTC. Just email them and explain your situation, it will be resolved soon(ish)!
February 10, 2014, 03:37:30 PM
I'm not sure why so many people think a volatility cap is a good idea for any exchange. To a certain extent I guess I agree, but half of us only trade crypto because of the volatility.
Most of us coming from forex/stock markets and any trader with 'more than 3 neurons' (as the BFX devs put it) would immediately abandon BTC markets if a strict cap similar to other markets was every put in place.
Its really a risk/reward problem, even trading bitcoin comes with the inherent risk that your exchange will just run off with your money not to mention the sort of problems people have discussing here with 'halted' trading. In addition if you have an experience with forex/stock exchanges/brokers trading bitcoin is like stepping back into the dark ages. The fees are insane, there's no regulation, support for the trading platforms in pitiful by comparison, none of your funds are insured.
My forex account is not only insured for 2 million but I also earn interest just on the deposit (not for lending just for having money on the exchange). In addition most brokers offer ninjatrader, metatrader, or some other kind of support (the working version I might add), along with a number of other custom trading tools.
If the volatility is gone the traders will be too.
Its not the volatility that bothers anyone, its the halting of the trades during volatility. I agree that traders love volatility but halting trading due to a cascade is much worse from a trader's perspective.
The circuit breaker is a "meet in the middle" compromise where we trade some volatility for more platform reliability. Ideally we wouldn't have any circuit breaker nor halt any trades and let the chips land where they fall, but we simply can't do that. BFX HAS to halt trades to prevent certain extreme forms of volatility causing a cascade.
If you think my rolling half-breaker is WORSE than halting all trades on both sides then let us know so we can discuss the issue.
I think MORE traders would be gone if they got their positions ruined due to halted trading.
February 10, 2014, 03:35:23 PM
I'm not sure why so many people think a volatility cap is a good idea for any exchange. To a certain extent I guess I agree, but half of us only trade crypto because of the volatility.
Most of us coming from forex/stock markets and any trader with 'more than 3 neurons' (as the BFX devs put it) would immediately abandon BTC markets if a strict cap similar to other markets was every put in place.
Its really a risk/reward problem, even trading bitcoin comes with the inherent risk that your exchange will just run off with your money not to mention the sort of problems people have discussing here with 'halted' trading. In addition if you have an experience with forex/stock exchanges/brokers trading bitcoin is like stepping back into the dark ages. The fees are insane, there's no regulation, support for the trading platforms in pitiful by comparison, none of your funds are insured.
My forex account is not only insured for 2 million but I also earn interest just on the deposit (not for lending just for having money on the exchange). In addition most brokers offer ninjatrader, metatrader, or some other kind of support (the working version I might add), along with a number of other custom trading tools.
If the volatility is gone the traders will be too.
I also might add most of the markets mentioned as a precedent for such a policy have brokers that offer 300:1 leverage or more.
Most of us coming from forex/stock markets and any trader with 'more than 3 neurons' (as the BFX devs put it) would immediately abandon BTC markets if a strict cap similar to other markets was every put in place.
Its really a risk/reward problem, even trading bitcoin comes with the inherent risk that your exchange will just run off with your money not to mention the sort of problems people have discussing here with 'halted' trading. In addition if you have an experience with forex/stock exchanges/brokers trading bitcoin is like stepping back into the dark ages. The fees are insane, there's no regulation, support for the trading platforms in pitiful by comparison, none of your funds are insured.
My forex account is not only insured for 2 million but I also earn interest just on the deposit (not for lending just for having money on the exchange). In addition most brokers offer ninjatrader, metatrader, or some other kind of support (the working version I might add), along with a number of other custom trading tools.
If the volatility is gone the traders will be too.
I also might add most of the markets mentioned as a precedent for such a policy have brokers that offer 300:1 leverage or more.
So something like 10% per hour would not be enough for you?
February 10, 2014, 03:28:29 PM
February 10, 2014, 03:25:10 PM
Is anyone else having BTC withdrawal issues with Bitfinex? I've placed a withdrawal 7 hours ago; after three hours I sent an email to support and haven't received a response. An earlier post by Giancarlo (sp?) seems to affirm that they're replenishing the hot wallet, but thus far nothing. I received a "Completed transaction" about an hour ago, but receiving wallet still shows no deposit.
just look at the hash you see there and post it on blockchain.info
Maybe your BTC wallet is buggy.
TwinWinNerD,
Thanks for the quick response. The receiving wallet (exchange) is Bitstamp and the Blockchain hash check shows "we could not find any blocks or transactions matching this hash." This is a non-trivial amount of BTC (~30), so I'd like to get to the bottom of it.
Thanks.
February 10, 2014, 03:24:16 PM
......
I like that idea.
Some automatic breaker, with the rules published in advance, and a clear message on every page of BitFinex in such a condition.
Please, everybody who still complains, take it to BitFinex email, as they themselves asked for. Or open a thread in "scam accusation", whatever. I don't want to hear it again and again for pages and pages.
To everybody making suggestions here: This sounds like we really can come up with a good plan here. And, as was stated by BitFinex/Giancarlo several times, people who make good suggestions will get some goodies. They are listening to us, lets make the platform go out stronger from this!
Ente
Yeah, a clearly defined and public circuit breaker of some type i think would help ease the market a LOT. I think the half-breaker would be awesome if the details are public because as soon as its turned on buyers would RUSH in and refill the bids because from their point of view, they get to buy coins at 0-5% below bitstamp price with *near certainty* their bids will get filled as the liquidations continue in a controlled fashion.
If we all knew the cascade was about to happen, i think a lot of us with available funds would have set up bid ladders to take advantage. There are few forces more powerful than greed, a half-breaker takes advantage of that.
I sure hope this gets implemented and i get a small bonus!
February 10, 2014, 03:07:55 PM
Is anyone else having BTC withdrawal issues with Bitfinex? I've placed a withdrawal 7 hours ago; after three hours I sent an email to support and haven't received a response. An earlier post by Giancarlo (sp?) seems to affirm that they're replenishing the hot wallet, but thus far nothing. I received a "Completed transaction" about an hour ago, but receiving wallet still shows no deposit.
just look at the hash you see there and post it on blockchain.info
Maybe your BTC wallet is buggy.
February 10, 2014, 03:07:54 PM
Is anyone else having BTC withdrawal issues with Bitfinex? I've placed a withdrawal 7 hours ago; after three hours I sent an email to support and haven't received a response. An earlier post by Giancarlo (sp?) seems to affirm that they're replenishing the hot wallet, but thus far nothing. I received a "Completed transaction" about an hour ago, but receiving wallet still shows no deposit.
i transferred 8 btc like 2 hours ago, however i made another withdraw of 5 btc that i have not received. I just sent support an email no response yet
February 10, 2014, 03:02:32 PM
Is anyone else having BTC withdrawal issues with Bitfinex? I've placed a withdrawal 7 hours ago; after three hours I sent an email to support and haven't received a response. An earlier post by Giancarlo (sp?) seems to affirm that they're replenishing the hot wallet, but thus far nothing. I received a "Completed transaction" about an hour ago, but receiving wallet still shows no deposit.
February 10, 2014, 03:02:04 PM
Why ?
Because the low is 530. Even NYSE / Nasdaq will bust trades that should not have happened.
So what I would suggest next time this happens.. start the market without bitstamp until prices of bitstamp and bitfinex are within a certain margin. This would give people a more fair chance to close their position without any/much loss.
February 10, 2014, 02:52:14 PM
February 10, 2014, 02:36:29 PM
Hi Raphael,
How would you explain the erasing of the long positions that people had right after the crash as if they never existed? I believe that deleting an already
filled position is a borderline scam. Please correct me if I'm wrong and elaborate.
Thanks.
How would you explain the erasing of the long positions that people had right after the crash as if they never existed? I believe that deleting an already
filled position is a borderline scam. Please correct me if I'm wrong and elaborate.
Thanks.
During a flashcrash at the big stock exhanges, trades get reversed too...
February 10, 2014, 02:30:28 PM
Read a few pages back in this tread. Basicly Bitfinex's BTC funds at Bitstamp ran out, then the sell orders chewed trough the bitfinex orderbook, and all margin calls hit, causing the price to crash towards zero (in your screenshot the highest bid is only 100), at that time all trading was halted, and rolled back.
February 10, 2014, 02:30:18 PM
Hey everyone,
I guess it'll be my last message here for today, sorry I can't answer to every individuals requests. Requests made to our email support will be treated in the next few days, including those who lost money because of our trading halt.
So my point will be these: the liquidations that happened and took the price to 100 were less than 25% of the total leveraged long positions. A lot of traders also have collaterals in BTC. Which means that nor Bitfinex nor Bitstamp had enough depth to absorb the cascading liquidations that would have occured and drag the price to near 0 as ALL long would have eventually be liquidated.
So yes, halting the trading engine saved 15+ millions of dollars. Yes, we will be fair to traders that got caught in a short during these time (again, on support email, not in the thread). If you think we should have let liquidity providers lose everything and close the margin trading for good, I understand. Maybe we halted the trading engine a bit too long. But we do not regret this decision and think this was the fairest decision to take.
One last thing: we are not impacted by the problem of Bitcoin withdrawals MtGox have. When a withdrawal seems to have failed, we use the bitcoin address to do a manual double check. So far this is not an issue.
Thank you all for your comprehension and have a good day
Raphael
I guess it'll be my last message here for today, sorry I can't answer to every individuals requests. Requests made to our email support will be treated in the next few days, including those who lost money because of our trading halt.
So my point will be these: the liquidations that happened and took the price to 100 were less than 25% of the total leveraged long positions. A lot of traders also have collaterals in BTC. Which means that nor Bitfinex nor Bitstamp had enough depth to absorb the cascading liquidations that would have occured and drag the price to near 0 as ALL long would have eventually be liquidated.
So yes, halting the trading engine saved 15+ millions of dollars. Yes, we will be fair to traders that got caught in a short during these time (again, on support email, not in the thread). If you think we should have let liquidity providers lose everything and close the margin trading for good, I understand. Maybe we halted the trading engine a bit too long. But we do not regret this decision and think this was the fairest decision to take.
One last thing: we are not impacted by the problem of Bitcoin withdrawals MtGox have. When a withdrawal seems to have failed, we use the bitcoin address to do a manual double check. So far this is not an issue.
Thank you all for your comprehension and have a good day
Raphael
Hi Raphael,
How would you explain the erasing of the long positions that people had right after the crash as if they never existed? I believe that deleting an already
filled position is a borderline scam. Please correct me if I'm wrong and elaborate.
Thanks.
February 10, 2014, 02:30:01 PM
Why ?
Because the low is 530. Even NYSE / Nasdaq will bust trades that should not have happened.
February 10, 2014, 02:29:35 PM
Hi Raphy or Giancarlo,
Could you just confirm that the flashcrash trades are/will stay rolled back?
PS: Bitcoins occassional volatility makes trading on margin unpractical. Imho the Bitfinex platform can only survive if there are clear rules about what happens in cases of extreme volatility. I like both the idea for an automatic pause and the option for lenders to take over the position of the trader during extreme volatility. Maybe it is possible to enable asymmetric trading up till a certain level during the pause? (allowing shorters to get out of their position while simultaneously helping the severe crash). I haven't really thought it through, but I think we need to come up with a solid and transparent action plan.
I think traders can live with a world in which they can't profit from flash crashes (but only from 'slow' changes of 10% per hour or so), so long as they feel that they are being treated fairly according to the rules.
Could you just confirm that the flashcrash trades are/will stay rolled back?
PS: Bitcoins occassional volatility makes trading on margin unpractical. Imho the Bitfinex platform can only survive if there are clear rules about what happens in cases of extreme volatility. I like both the idea for an automatic pause and the option for lenders to take over the position of the trader during extreme volatility. Maybe it is possible to enable asymmetric trading up till a certain level during the pause? (allowing shorters to get out of their position while simultaneously helping the severe crash). I haven't really thought it through, but I think we need to come up with a solid and transparent action plan.
I think traders can live with a world in which they can't profit from flash crashes (but only from 'slow' changes of 10% per hour or so), so long as they feel that they are being treated fairly according to the rules.
February 10, 2014, 02:27:38 PM
....... gone ........vanished like it never happend!
Thats right, it should not have happend to begin with.
Why ?
February 10, 2014, 02:24:10 PM
....... gone ........vanished like it never happend!
Thats right, it should not have happend to begin with.
February 10, 2014, 02:03:41 PM
Have everything backed up with a APS / UPS,
but they only provide like 5 to 10 minutes at most
of power, what I need to do is install a Gasoline-Generator,
or a monkey on a bicycle, lol
Having sold at 600 I'm also feeling your pain,
Another Trader's advice to me in situations like
that has been to "Trade the Market, Not Your Position, You can always Find a Good Position / Entry"
Don't Worry about having sold low, make up for it via another good trade.
If you have a hybrid electric vehicle a really cool thing a friend of mine did was install a high-powered inverter directly into the car's hybrid battery (not the 12 volt battery, the high voltage one used to run the vehicle). Now the car itself becomes a very powerful portable generator that can run his whole home for a full day on a full tank of gasoline. noise and emissions are also much better than a good store bought generator.
And i realized i just went way off topic. PM me if you want further details.
As for your advice. the real trick is knowing when to abandon a bad position and eat the loss.
Jump to: