Topic: On Apple's $200 billion dump and US shooting itself in the foot - page 3. (Read 699 times)

Well, it's obvious that China's grip on its companies is a world much tighter than the US'. I don't think the exodus of American brands would ever happen in China. Although there may be a somehow similar situation in the red country right now, this largely involves foreign companies. As to homegrown Chinese companies, I don't think its equally easy for them to leave the country as with homegrown US companies leaving the US. In the US, the capitalists are the ones holding the government at gunpoint. In China, it's the other way around. There's a huge difference as to where power actually resides.

When the US' tiger economy was in its infancy, child labor was rampant. Later on, standards improved as American people began living in abundance. China's story is more or less similar, although it started a bit later.

US and China are in many ways two faces of the same coin. The circumstances were different so they went on different paths of different types of dictatorship. Otherwise under same circumstances they would do exactly the same thing!

For example these days both regimes are preventing capital from exiting their country by banning any company that wishes to do so or if they insist the government bankrupts the hell out of them. China is doing it to its investment companies like those involved in real estate, US is doing it to a lot of companies including investment firms like BlackRock.
The difference is that China never claimed to be a "liberal economy or country" but US did

A couple of decades ago US economy was big and strong so they introduced strong laws against Child labor.
A couple of decades ago Chinese economy was tiny and weak so they introduced sweatshops with child (cheap) workers.
Today US economy is weakening and over the past couple of years the child labor laws in US are getting "looser" and American sweatshop are the expected reality as the violations are already up 300% according to the U.S. Department of Labor and that's the illegal cases, they are basically legalizing a lot of it so that they can get more minors (cheap labor) into their sweatshops and keep production alive for a little longer!

Yep, China is definitely not so different in the US, I only ever heard of what US done to countries that need to be 'freed' and shared some 'democracy' I never witness it because it never happened to my country. But for China, I actually witness how bad they are, their 'investment' money bring chaos in my country, they don't want local labor, China bring their own labor, lower class doesn't actually get any benefit of their investment, and even worse their latest investment, are about to create a civil war and local rebellion, they forced people to move out of their own land.

I'm not a fan of both countries, although I tend to hate China more. But I think I'm objective enough to see that the US has indeed been shooting itself in the foot for the past years, even decades. And in so many ways.

People tend to assume, for example, that cheap labor is the only factor that drives companies like Apple away from the US and into China and neighboring countries. It's certainly not.

Both China and the US are bullies not just against other countries but also against their very own people. It's certainly less severe in the US, but that it's done against a people for whom liberty is paramount, it has much more tremendous effects.

Anyway, Apple is more Chinese than American now, so...

It's a great sight to see that the world order is changing! It is indeed a multi-polar world today as it should have always been. But unfortunately, the fear of gunpowder creeped up the world since a long time. It's good that it is changing and the power is shifting back to the new world order. US has been the largest warmonger in the history of modern world and has already devastated multiple countries in Asia and Middle East. But the problem here is that Chinese are getting stronger! They are not a good number one!

China is an expansionist nation and a potential trouble maker. My forecast is - the next world war will be fought in Asia. China is just an inch away to conquer Taiwan and US will not allow that to happen. RU, India, Middle East, Japan, Australia will get directly involved into this new world war and whoever remains, will become the new world order. US needs to stop this sanction game right away! Because of their sanctions, EU people is facing energy crisis. 

I buy a samsung. No one should buy an iPhone and I am glad apple took a hit on this.  They have become a true disgrace to their original we are not the man image.

Every day I listen to the news hoping to hear about another country hurting apple and their bs gear.

BTW I own six Mac mini's and 2 iPads
 but all samsung phones.

This short video is interesting and reflects a fact.

The Newsroom - America is not the greatest country in the world anymore. (explicit)
I quoted because it's fact and even it is a comedy, it is insightful. I am unsure the White House, the USA. Congress and politicians there recognized this fact or not. If they recognized it, it is a first great step to make their America great again. Else, did not recognize it, fail to recognize it in future, they will lose their leading position.

Don't make it your habit to put your fantasies in my mouth and twist my words in a way that favors you
1. I said that "China's technological greatness" is a consequence of western investment and their technology and their EQUIPMENT.
2. I was saying that the west has drastically reduced the supply of technology to China, which will negatively impact this sector of the Chinese economy.
Moreover, the US is moving high-tech production, for example Apple is moving its assembly to a more adequate and promising country - India )
The US is banning the training of specialists from China in advanced technological educational institutions.
3. "Ban of iPhone in China for civil servants" - this is not a technological breakthrough of China, it is just restrictions for some group of buyers.

It's typical of you to only take out a small point in a whole topic and try to change the subject.
You have forgotten that 7 months ago in the topic about "Economic implications of a US-China-Taiwan conflict" all the arguments were China's inability to build any decent microchips and some even suggested that there is to "engineering talent" in China to do so.
Now that China is manufacturing high tech chips, of course you want to focus on Apple...

That's true but the point is that this is not the only case and it is not just China. The economic war between US and China has been going on and China is giving as much as it gets. A lot of other countries are taking actions from dedollarisation to decreasing imports from US that is hurting US economy. For example Iran jut banned the new iPhones in the country too and that's a $6 billion market.

Another point I'd like to make is that the US debt based economy is weaker and a lot more vulnerable than the Chinese production based economy. The only reason why the effects of all these things on US economy hasn't been catastrophic yet is the huge interest rate with constant money printing and exporting inflation.
In simple terms US has turned its economy into a Ponzi scheme where they create debt and sell it to Europe and countries like Japan so that this way they can keep their own economy artificially alive and hope to go back to the Old World Order to revive it for real.

Well, China and the US have been at each other's throats for a while in some ways now. However, it is true that recently US has been getting a lot of blows that are setting them up for a major disaster. And now I know some will say that it will take much much more than these blows to take the US down but that is not the main point, it's the fact that it's been happening a lot recently and it is slowly pushing the US to its vulnerable state. Of course it will take years to take the US down (why is this even a goal anyway) but the percentage of it possibly happening is already a red flag for that empire.

This is normal when China bans the use of iPhones for government-backed agencies and companies. The reason they gave was national security concerns. We have seen the US stifle important Chinese phone company Huawei for the same reason.
Come up with a hypothesis that if China bans its people from using it and stops companies from manufacturing in their country, Apple cannot die. They only lost part of it. That means they are challenging America. I believe they are not strong enough to resist the sanctions that the US will respond to. But looking back, US production now depends heavily on goods from China. This is also their dilemma.

China is next level dictatorship I feel like just in the worst way. If anyone needs BTC right now it's them, I would also add an invisible cloak to that list!!

Another proof that the US should stop playing the "global policeman", introduce sanctions against countries and use USD for punitive purposes. Or in other words they should stop pretending they're an empire and start solving real problems like poverty, homelessness, crime etc.

Its not capitalism USA practices "favored son" to the business it likes and fuck you to the ones it does not like.

Politics cause all kinds of fucked up shit and crazy ruthless businesses go right along with them.

One example is  how badly ge fucked philco over tv patents .

Or how the Facebook guy first fucked the winklevoss twins and then fucked his own partner it is amazing that the US does any legit shit at all.

Point taken. In my opinion the US has been very complacent over the years, power drunk from the fact that no other country in the past was able to keep up with it despite the predictions that China could outgrow it in the future. This led them to sanction and dismiss every other "third world country" beyond the US borders as something inferior to them, which definitely struck them back with overwhelming force. Japan has done this to them in the past with the monopoly of Japanese tech products taking over the US consumer base, they weren't able to understand and look introspectively into this for some reason and now they are suffering the consequences, and right during one of their worst economic situations yet too. It's time that we see another Superpower to the table. maybe give the US a reality check that capitalism doesn't breed competition anymore, it's breeding oligarchy and the death of commerce.

It is very "logical" to pass off the problem of a single, individual PRIVATE company, at the expense of regulatory bans, and think it is a US problem
So some index fell by some amount for some company, but China continues to accumulate US government bonds, in order to get and use more dollars, supporting the value of the dollar and the US economy.
Private business and the economy of a country are quite different entities

No world order lasts forever, not the Roman empire, not the British empire and not the U.S. All empires eventually get replaced with something fresh and different, although in reality they are all the same and they all seek the same things; power and control.

The U.S and the dollar has taken huge hits over the past few years but they are still a long way from being overthrown with BRICS posing s bigger threat than it did before. These other economies are not immune to hurdles too and will also take hits in the quest to changed the world order.

I agree that competition will bring USA down a bit, but I doubt that it would be anything that would be too sustainable and long term. Maybe Apple will not make as much money as it used to, but that doesn't make them any less powerful, nor any other USA based company that was already big. This makes them smaller, but still bigger than most. If you want to buy a phone today, and you have enough money to buy anything you want, would you buy a Chinese phone, or Apple? They are just a cheap alternative to people who can't afford apple, and even with that way too many people still prefer Apple even if that means they go into debt. I think its a thing that's happening right now, but not as big as what it seems.

So the Chinese government wants to expand the ban more of the use of iPhones to government-backed agencies and companies.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/07/investing/apple-stock-iphone-china-ban/index.html

This coming after apple decided to drag their feet on fixing a bunch of available exploits:
https://www.helpnetsecurity.com/2023/09/08/cve-2023-41064-cve-2023-41061/

On top of the ones that they fixed in July after months of them being exploited
https://thehackernews.com/2023/07/apple-issues-urgent-patch-for-zero-day.html

On top of all the other ones out there:
https://stack.watch/product/apple/iphone-os/
https://www.bitdefender.com/blog/hotforsecurity/apple-patches-first-zero-day-flaw-reported-in-2023-on-ios-and-macos/

I wonder why the Chinese government would want a home grown solution that they have more control of.

You can point a lot of legit fingers back at Apple as this being their fault. For DECADES they have touted security on their computers and for close to 15 years now on how much more secure their phones are then android.
But in the end, they are still very vulnerable. AND with the constant denials about issues things are starting to come back to bite them in the a$$.

No politics, not 'global economy' BS
Yes, the Chinese government can use the situation for this, but in the end more and more security people are ditching their iPhones and Apple devices in general because of the constant barrage of security problems in a closed source device.

-Dave

It is a couple of days old but it is new and I wouldn't call it "great news", it's just one of the changes in the current chaotic world. Not to mention that China is not that different from US.

Of course not, US economy is too big to "suffocate" from such a small thing. Not to mention that the Apple dump could even be recovered at some point in the near future. But this is becoming a regular thing, like a momentum and these dumps are accumulating in different fields. In other words the case of Apple dump is an example and it shows the high degree of vulnerability that US economy has in facing sanctions.
It's not going to be overnight either, like the dedollarisation. Dollar that once was used in 80-90% of the international trades, it is now barely reaching half of them as countries continue dumping it.

Sorry you didn't like my tone, feel free to read the businessinsider article, it is saying pretty much the same thing.

It's not all cheap and substandard. In fact I see Chinese economy as a very genius one that sees the "demand" in the world and creates the appropriate "supply" for it at cheap production cost. The reason why a lot of their products are substandard is because that's what their customers want.
If you check out the population of the biggest trade partners of China (US, South Korea, Japan, Taiwan in descending order of trade size), these countries have large number of middle and lower class citizens who are living hand to mouth and prefer affordable products. So that's what China manufactures.

But that's not all China manufactures, in other fields and products you can find top quality competitive products too. Off the top of my head their car industry which is at this point manufacturing competitive vehicles which some speculate is going to put a lot of big names out of business in the near future.

I didn't give "Kudos to China" and I disagree. That war has not ended yet to call its winner and also to this point there has been no winners. Both sides are still fighting and both sides are hurting in different ways. For example Chinese economy in certain places has gone bankrupt and some private companies were literally swallowed by the government to keep them afloat.
The difference between China and US is that China is fighting US while US is fighting majority of the world.

Thanks for putting it this way specially using these terms because US did the same exact thing to China in a large number of relationships. From Huawei only because it was manufactured in China to the recent sanctions on numerous Chinese companies just because BlackRock wanted to invest in them.

In other words my tone is not anti-US, I'm simply calling out sabotage, back-stabs, betrayals, and a lot of other shenanigans United States has been pulling on the rest of the world. Otherwise it's double standard