Pages:
Author

Topic: Open Letter to GMaxwell and Sincere Rational Core Devs - page 39. (Read 34840 times)

sr. member
Activity: 532
Merit: 251
conceded, a deflationary unit will tend to gain in value as surrounding economy grows.

So you (or Nash) is positing a value unit that stays exactly constant with the economy?  This seems impossible to me, as the surrounding economy is ever changing.  second by second even.

Also, it is very different from the other constants you mention such as watts or satoshi, as those are things that remain immutable regardless of surrounding environment.


I'm only repeating myself.  The man himself argues if you introduce something that is relatively stable in relation to a Nash (relative meaning the best on the market) then then the market will accept it as its beacon for inflation hedging.  Every government fiat must now compete whereas before they didn't have to.  The argument used to be they would devalue our fiat in order to spur spending.  But this doesn't help create a stable unit of value which what we need (and therefore such measures create chaos).

NOW because of bitcoin's gold like properties as the new inflation hedge in town, that is FAIRLY stable in relation to a Nash, governments will have to tend to the QUALITY of their money, where quality refers now to stability in relation to a Nash.  So ultimate evolution of this game, is an tendency towards a CEILING of idealness which is a perfect relation to a Nash.

Bitcoin will force our central banks to print ideal money. And we will lock in a stable unit of value, a Nash.

This is needed for optimal efficiency of our global economy.
full member
Activity: 203
Merit: 168
btw, all this posits that a deflationary money is not ideal money.   I think some austrians would disagree.  Can you point us to a specific nash writing that demonstrates that?  thx.
full member
Activity: 203
Merit: 168
conceded, a deflationary unit will tend to gain in value as surrounding economy grows.

So you (or Nash) is positing a value unit that stays exactly constant with the economy?  This seems impossible to me, as the surrounding economy is ever changing.  second by second even.

Also, it is very different from the other constants you mention such as watts or satoshi, as those are things that remain immutable regardless of surrounding environment.

these are just my initial thoughts.  I am not arguing.... I want to hear how the Nash unit can be achieved, and how it relates to bitcoin / satoshi unit.

It seems to me that 1 Satoshi *is* a unit of value, representing the energy/investment that was used to produce and secure it.  

There is no price associated with it until one wishes to buy or sell that unit for another currency.   So I don't see the need to introduce 1 nash or whatever.   But curious to hear OP's argument...
A Satoshi doesn't stay stable in value versus a Nash, because Satoshi's are deflationary.  They gain value over time.  Satoshi explained this, especially when we said we all again from the entropy of people losing their coins. Smiley


sr. member
Activity: 532
Merit: 251
It seems to me that 1 Satoshi *is* a unit of value, representing the energy/investment that was used to produce and secure it.  

There is no price associated with it until one wishes to buy or sell that unit for another currency.   So I don't see the need to introduce 1 nash or whatever.   But curious to hear OP's argument...
A Satoshi doesn't stay stable in value versus a Nash, because Satoshi's are deflationary.  They gain value over time.  Satoshi explained this, especially when we said we all again from the entropy of people losing their coins. Smiley

Bitcoin cannot be ideal money because ideal money is units of money stable in relation to a Nash
full member
Activity: 203
Merit: 168
It seems to me that 1 Satoshi *is* a unit of value, representing the energy/investment that was used to produce and secure it.  

There is no price associated with it until one wishes to buy or sell that unit for another currency.   So I don't see the need to introduce 1 nash or whatever.   But curious to hear OP's argument...
sr. member
Activity: 532
Merit: 251
Someone gimme a name for this unit of stable value so I can use it to explain?

Isn't it obvious? Just call it a Nash.

1 Valor.

or...

1 Nash.

you pick.   :-)

I think a great dialogue has opened and I am going to get to your questions, as there are great points.  But the problem and the difficulty is that we are conflating value and price. I am going to use the concept of a stable unit of value to explain, just as a thought experiment.  But we need a name for this unit.  Like Watt Celsius a Newton Satoshi (is a bitcoin unit) etc.  Someone gimme a name for this unit of stable value so I can use it to explain?

You see, a stable unit of value, is now called "a nash".

https://thewealthofchips.wordpress.com/2016/12/22/a-standard-unit-of-value/
legendary
Activity: 2646
Merit: 1137
All paid signature campaigns should be banned.
Someone gimme a name for this unit of stable value so I can use it to explain?

Isn't it obvious? Just call it a Nash.

Yes, I am very interested in the relationship between the Nash and the Satoshi Wink
full member
Activity: 203
Merit: 168
1 Valor.

or...

1 Nash.

you pick.   :-)

I think a great dialogue has opened and I am going to get to your questions, as there are great points.  But the problem and the difficulty is that we are conflating value and price. I am going to use the concept of a stable unit of value to explain, just as a thought experiment.  But we need a name for this unit.  Like Watt Celsius a Newton Satoshi (is a bitcoin unit) etc.  Someone gimme a name for this unit of stable value so I can use it to explain?
legendary
Activity: 3038
Merit: 1660
lose: unfind ... loose: untight
Someone gimme a name for this unit of stable value so I can use it to explain?

Isn't it obvious? Just call it a Nash.
legendary
Activity: 4410
Merit: 4766
Worse (for anyone who wants Bitcoin to be/become a medium of exchange) he says "Bitcoin cannot be ideal money" is a provable statement.

I am still looking for the proof of that but, assuming that statement is true efforts should be redirected.

Assuming the statement is provably true then I personally would not want to beat my head against the wall trying to make it a medium of exchange and in the process destroy it.

Still processing.

"ideal money" is a vision of Nash.

medium of exchange can be anything.

bitcoin does not need to be Nashs ideal money. bitcoin can be something new beyond the scope of nashes thoughts.
it can sit in its own new category where its still medium of exchange. but as a deflationary digital asset currency.

anything can be a currency/medium of exchange. the attributes of a currency can differ.
in history golds attributes were only for decoration... today its for circuitry tomorrow who knows some martian air purifier..

bitcoins attributes can change..
2009 speculative experiment.
2012 deflationary digital asset currency.
2018 smart contract trigger

we should not halt bitcoins progress much like we didnt say no to using gold in circuitry.

we should not really care about bitcoins value(price).. let that be the side effect
what we should be concentrating on is
the cause which is its value(utility) which will cascade to its action value(desire) which will gain more adoption and cascade more value(utility) which has an end result of value(price) as a result.

halting utility is just as bad as expanding utility

no point with halting development to play around with value(price) as only playing with value(price) is not sustainable
sr. member
Activity: 532
Merit: 251
I think a great dialogue has opened and I am going to get to your questions, as there are great points.  But the problem and the difficulty is that we are conflating value and price. I am going to use the concept of a stable unit of value to explain, just as a thought experiment.  But we need a name for this unit.  Like Watt Celsius a Newton Satoshi (is a bitcoin unit) etc.  Someone gimme a name for this unit of stable value so I can use it to explain?
legendary
Activity: 2646
Merit: 1137
All paid signature campaigns should be banned.
Question for OP:

What are your thoughts regarding present or future cryptocurrencies with demonstrably better "sound money" properties such as real fungibility?   An example of this today is Monero, although very likely in the future there could be one that retains bitcoin's properties, is fungible, and is also scaleable to "coffee money".

In theory and removing certain present technical limitations, I do not see a contradiction between a currency that can be both a settlement system and coffee money.    Do you?


It appears that a fundamental part of the OPs claim is:

You can be an ideal store of value
You can be an ideal medium of exchange
You cannot be both
Any crypto that tries to do both will fail at both
legendary
Activity: 2646
Merit: 1137
All paid signature campaigns should be banned.
Worse (for anyone who wants Bitcoin to be/become a medium of exchange) he says "Bitcoin cannot be ideal money" is a provable statement.

I am still looking for the proof of that but, assuming that statement is true efforts should be redirected.

Assuming the statement is provably true then I personally would not want to beat my head against the wall trying to make it a medium of exchange and in the process destroy it.

Still processing.
legendary
Activity: 3038
Merit: 1660
lose: unfind ... loose: untight
I think you are confusing price and value.  From what I can tell Bitcoin is the thing with "relatively stable value".  The other thing, the thing that approximates ideal money would change in relation to Bitcoin.

So the value of Bitcoin priced in the ideal money would be changing.

The value of Bitcoin is relatively constant, the price of Bitcoin priced in "ideal money" would vary over time.

Oh dear. Just when I was starting to think I understood OP...

So we're back to some non-Bitcoin being our best approximation of a Nash ideal money? While it is an interesting conversation, why are we conducting it in a Bitcoin-centered venue?

Is there some nexus between Bitcoin and some posited Nash ideal money? Is the latter a former a derivative of the former in some manner?
full member
Activity: 203
Merit: 168
Question for OP:

What are your thoughts regarding present or future cryptocurrencies with demonstrably better "sound money" properties such as real fungibility?   An example of this today is Monero, although very likely in the future there could be one that retains bitcoin's properties, is fungible, and is also scaleable to "coffee money".

In theory and removing certain present technical limitations, I do not see a contradiction between a currency that can be both a settlement system and coffee money.    Do you?

legendary
Activity: 2646
Merit: 1137
All paid signature campaigns should be banned.
The problem is you are assuming that the banking sector will use it and not their
own government approved cryptocurrency version.

If we restrict ourselves now, with dreams of world banking use and that doesn't occur,
then what is the course of action?
I think the totally cool part of his argument is that whether the banking sector actually uses Bitcoin or not is immaterial.  The argument is that as people (and maybe the smarter institutions) use Bitcoin more and more as a store of value the entire monetary system is changed through economic forces outside of their control.  They may use Bitcoin or not, makes no difference.

What is new to me here is the idea that mass adoption as a medium of exchange - what we have all talked about for so long - may not be the most expedient way to use Bitcoin to revolutionize the system.  If fact the argument goes farther:  pushing Bitcoin as a medium of exchange is counterproductive to the revolution and in fact may be lethal.

I still have not found the proof of this assertion but if true we should all immediately stop trying to create a medium of exchange and in fact focus on supporting Bitcoin on the "store of value" front.
legendary
Activity: 2646
Merit: 1137
All paid signature campaigns should be banned.
Joe,

I think you are confusing price and value.  From what I can tell Bitcoin is the thing with "relatively stable value".  The other thing, the thing that approximates ideal money would change in relation to Bitcoin.

So the value of Bitcoin priced in the ideal money would be changing.

The value of Bitcoin is relatively constant, the price of Bitcoin priced in "ideal money" would vary over time.
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1001
Fact:  we have been discussing the block size limit for a long time
Fact:  no consensus has been reached

My opinion:  It is looking more and more like a consensus is impossible

Assume for the moment that Bitcoin will proceed from this time forward with only critical bug fixes that everyone can agree to (cryptographic changes in the face of a breaking cryptographic algorithm as an example)

I personally would not be that upset by locking it in as it is now.

Especially if it can be show to me that by doing so we can revolutionize the entire banking sector as a side effect.

The problem is you are assuming that the banking sector will use it and not their
own government approved cryptocurrency version.

If we restrict ourselves now, with dreams of world banking use and that doesn't occur,
then what is the course of action?
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1001

A blocksize increase will occur one day in the future, that is a fact.
To prevent that from happening is almost impossible.
No facts are things you can observe or have observed, they are not your feelings about the future you dumb mutt.


Yes, but that only holds true in 2017.
It is only a digital gold now because of technological restrictions, not due to design.

No.  Satoshi designed the fact that you are observing today.  and it gets harder to change not easier, thats why everyone was pissed the MOMENT he did it. Thats why he never talked about it after and that why he doesn't exist.

Satoshi is a lie, and a complex you subscribe to.  Your new religion: https://steemit.com/bitcoin/@jokerpravis/the-satoshi-complex-the-greatest-trick-in-the-history-of-humanity


Lol. When Satoshi did it, the community at the time did not complain in the way in which you are insinuating.
I think you have an incorrect view on how Bitcoin exists and will exist into the future.

In a way, your view is possibly the most malicious viewpoint I have ever witnessed within the community.
legendary
Activity: 2646
Merit: 1137
All paid signature campaigns should be banned.
Fact:  we have been discussing the block size limit for a long time
Fact:  no consensus has been reached

My opinion:  It is looking more and more like a consensus is impossible

Assume for the moment that Bitcoin will proceed from this time forward with only critical bug fixes that everyone can agree to (cryptographic changes in the face of a breaking cryptographic algorithm as an example)

I personally would not be that upset by locking it in as it is now.

Especially if it can be show to me that by doing so we can revolutionize the entire banking sector as a side effect.
Pages:
Jump to: