Topic: ☆☆☆ Opportunity to mine with Avalon ASICs ☞☞ Updated Prices - page 2. (Read 5488 times)

Practical query, other concerns aside:

I don't follow how investment and returns are related. You say you require 780BTC to order chips. Fine. THen you will require an additional 3500BTC to make the chips go. Ok.

We require an additional ~2300-2800 BTC, not 3500. 3500 BTC is inclusive of the 780 BTC required for the chips.

So I invest 100 BTC in this project, my return is... Huh

Given current difficulty, you could get back your investment in less than a month. As difficulty increases, the time for ROI does increase but not by a lot.

I'm not even talking about calculating profits, simply calculating what 1 BTC of investment is supposedly purchasing. The cost of manufacture being relatively unknown on your end makes for a problem.

The cost of manufacturing is included in the ~3000-3500 BTC rough estimate.

Quote from: BitcoinOxygen on April 23, 2013, 09:15:44 AM

What happens if you raise 780BTC, to order chips, but you don't raise Huh

BTC to create the remaining portion of the project? TS for the investors? Re-sell chips at some point for whatever they are now worth, and return whatever percentage of the initial investment to the people who funded the buy? Would you take a management fee of that as well?

If we get 780 BTC and don't get the remaining portion, then we will see the best viable option. One such option is to re-sell the chips and return the proceeds to the investors. There won't be a management fee in such a scenario. We do hope to get enough funding for the whole plan. We initially had a private investor who was interested in such a venture. That is why decided to see if we could garner interest for the whole thing.

I'd like to point out the benefits of this service vs Burnin's manufactured boards.

BitcoinOxygen is a one-stop-shop. They will order the chips and receive them directly. Burnin will receive the chips from Zefir. I'm not implying any malicious intent, but when every second counts a few days lost in shipping will add up
Next, I'm not sure about Burnin's manufacturing strategy, but it appears that he has a metric fuckton of orders already. He'll probably continue to receive more too. Hopefully he hires some people to help his assembly, if he doesn't then there will be a huge lag and people will start bitching like he's the next BFL
BitcoinOxygen's approach is rather simple, you pay up and they do all of the work. You don't have to wait for someone to ship the chips, you don't have to wait for someone to ship the final product, you don't have to set it up. You pay up and wait for some return.
Someone calculated the estimate cost of a 10-chip unit that Burnin builds at 3 BTC. So the value of 1 BTC = 942 MHash/s
Applying the same value towards BitcoinOxygen 3500 BTC is the total budget that will have a rate of 2800 GHash/s. So the value of 1 BTC = 782 MHash/s. This is a difference of 17% from Burnin's machine.

Now, the difference in payouts is that with Burnin you will receive 100% of what you mine. BitcoinOxygen will payout after a 15% fee + another undetermined fee. I can understand why many people would be apprehensive to invest, Burnin clearly has a better return but BitcoinOxygen is upfront about their projected costs and they have made conservative estimates so that if they run into issues they don't have to ask for extra money to complete the project. They both Project a July-ish delivery date.

There will always be risks involved in anything here, so the question that's most important is who will deliver to you first? Will it be Burnin's 500th order? or will it be BitcoinOxygen's monster miner? Every second counts this summer.

I'll probably buy into both

Without Overclocking:
The Value per 1 BTC = 825 MHash/s. Not 782 Mhash/s.

With Overclocking:
The Value per 1 BTC = 1110 MHash/s.

iammagicmike

full member

Activity: 149

Merit: 100

Practical query, other concerns aside:

I don't follow how investment and returns are related. You say you require 780BTC to order chips. Fine. THen you will require an additional 3500BTC to make the chips go. Ok.

We require an additional ~2300-2800 BTC, not 3500. 3500 BTC is inclusive of the 780 BTC required for the chips.

So I invest 100 BTC in this project, my return is... Huh

Given current difficulty, you could get back your investment in less than a month. As difficulty increases, the time for ROI does increase but not by a lot.

I'm not even talking about calculating profits, simply calculating what 1 BTC of investment is supposedly purchasing. The cost of manufacture being relatively unknown on your end makes for a problem.

The cost of manufacturing is included in the ~3000-3500 BTC rough estimate.

What happens if you raise 780BTC, to order chips, but you don't raise Huh

BTC to create the remaining portion of the project? TS for the investors? Re-sell chips at some point for whatever they are now worth, and return whatever percentage of the initial investment to the people who funded the buy? Would you take a management fee of that as well?

If we get 780 BTC and don't get the remaining portion, then we will see the best viable option. One such option is to re-sell the chips and return the proceeds to the investors. There won't be a management fee in such a scenario. We do hope to get enough funding for the whole plan. We initially had a private investor who was interested in such a venture. That is why decided to see if we could garner interest for the whole thing.

I'd like to point out the benefits of this service vs Burnin's manufactured boards.

BitcoinOxygen is a one-stop-shop. They will order the chips and receive them directly. Burnin will receive the chips from Zefir. I'm not implying any malicious intent, but when every second counts a few days lost in shipping will add up
Next, I'm not sure about Burnin's manufacturing strategy, but it appears that he has a metric fuckton of orders already. He'll probably continue to receive more too. Hopefully he hires some people to help his assembly, if he doesn't then there will be a huge lag and people will start bitching like he's the next BFL
BitcoinOxygen's approach is rather simple, you pay up and they do all of the work. You don't have to wait for someone to ship the chips, you don't have to wait for someone to ship the final product, you don't have to set it up. You pay up and wait for some return.
Someone calculated the estimate cost of a 10-chip unit that Burnin builds at 3 BTC. So the value of 1 BTC = 942 MHash/s
Applying the same value towards BitcoinOxygen 3500 BTC is the total budget that will have a rate of 2800 GHash/s. So the value of 1 BTC = 782 MHash/s. This is a difference of 17% from Burnin's machine.

Now, the difference in payouts is that with Burnin you will receive 100% of what you mine. BitcoinOxygen will payout after a 15% fee + another undetermined fee. I can understand why many people would be apprehensive to invest, Burnin clearly has a better return but BitcoinOxygen is upfront about their projected costs and they have made conservative estimates so that if they run into issues they don't have to ask for extra money to complete the project. They both Project a July-ish delivery date.

There will always be risks involved in anything here, so the question that's most important is who will deliver to you first? Will it be Burnin's 500th order? or will it be BitcoinOxygen's monster miner? Every second counts this summer.

I'll probably buy into both

Adamlm

hero member

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any chance to calculate the estimated ROI ?

StarenseN

legendary

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Interesting.

BitcoinOxygen

sr. member

Activity: 336

Merit: 250

Practical query, other concerns aside:

I don't follow how investment and returns are related. You say you require 780BTC to order chips. Fine. THen you will require an additional 3500BTC to make the chips go. Ok.

We require an additional ~2300-2800 BTC, not 3500. 3500 BTC is inclusive of the 780 BTC required for the chips.

So I invest 100 BTC in this project, my return is... Huh

Given current difficulty, you could get back your investment in less than a month. As difficulty increases, the time for ROI does increase but not by a lot.

I'm not even talking about calculating profits, simply calculating what 1 BTC of investment is supposedly purchasing. The cost of manufacture being relatively unknown on your end makes for a problem.

The cost of manufacturing is included in the ~3000-3500 BTC rough estimate.

Quote from: peetah on April 23, 2013, 02:18:36 AM

What happens if you raise 780BTC, to order chips, but you don't raise Huh

BTC to create the remaining portion of the project? TS for the investors? Re-sell chips at some point for whatever they are now worth, and return whatever percentage of the initial investment to the people who funded the buy? Would you take a management fee of that as well?

If we get 780 BTC and don't get the remaining portion, then we will see the best viable option. One such option is to re-sell the chips and return the proceeds to the investors. There won't be a management fee in such a scenario. We do hope to get enough funding for the whole plan. We initially had a private investor who was interested in such a venture. That is why decided to see if we could garner interest for the whole thing.

bcpokey

hero member

Activity: 602

Merit: 500

Practical query, other concerns aside:

I don't follow how investment and returns are related. You say you require 780BTC to order chips. Fine. THen you will require an additional 3500BTC to make the chips go. Ok.

So I invest 100 BTC in this project, my return is... Huh

I'm not even talking about calculating profits, simply calculating what 1 BTC of investment is supposedly purchasing. The cost of manufacture being relatively unknown on your end makes for a problem.

What happens if you raise 780BTC, to order chips, but you don't raise Huh

BTC to create the remaining portion of the project? TS for the investors? Re-sell chips at some point for whatever they are now worth, and return whatever percentage of the initial investment to the people who funded the buy? Would you take a management fee of that as well?

BitcoinOxygen

sr. member

Activity: 336

Merit: 250

Quote from: BitcoinOxygen on April 23, 2013, 01:50:51 AM

Quote from: Bitsaurus on April 23, 2013, 01:43:26 AM

Quote from: Inspector 2211 on April 23, 2013, 01:44:06 AM

4000+ BTC (net 15% management costs) for <3000 GH/s with a four month waiting period.

Vs.

80 BTC for >70 GH/s for batch 4.

Ummm...

3500 + 15% is roughly 4000 BTC

Assuming Avalon Batch 4 is 40BTC, why not just buy 100 Batch 4 units which should hash at 5000GH/s. No need to cut your fingers or do any work other than setting them up.

Whoops I gave away my plan Grin

The management fee will be taken from the mining income and not from the setup costs. So funds needed is ~3500 BTC

Ok. My bad. 15 percent less income works even worse in your favour. As follows:

3500 BTC for 2400 GH/s. Batch 3 gives you 3500 BTC for 3400 GH/s. And since they price according to ROI, batch 4 will be even cheaper.

We expect 2820 GH/s as a base. With overclocking, we could achieve more.

Batch 3 will get you roughly 33 units for 3500 BTC. That is 33x85 = 2890 GH/s, not 3400 GH/s.

As for pricing of batch 4, nothing is known yet.

BitcoinOxygen

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Activity: 336

Merit: 250

Quote from: BitcoinOxygen on April 23, 2013, 01:33:43 AM

Quote from: Rampion on April 23, 2013, 01:51:27 AM

have you ordered the chips or are you waiting for people to fund this project?
Regards

We are waiting for investors to fund this project and as soon as we hit 780 BTC we will order 10k of Avalon ASIC chips.

Good luck with that.
It's so massively overpriced, it's not even funny.
Let's assume someone wanted to buy boards with a total of 10000 ASICs on them. 3500 BTC is, whatever, $425000 for 2800 GH/s?
Seriously, man?

Can you please give numbers before considering it overpriced?

To get 2800 GH/s with the Batch 3 units, you need 33 units at 101 BTC each. That works out to roughly 3350 BTC. Our ballpark estimate is not very far off. Any savings we achieve in assembly and parts will be passed on to the investors.

BitcoinOxygen

sr. member

Activity: 336

Merit: 250

Quote from: Bitsaurus on April 23, 2013, 01:43:26 AM

Quote from: BitcoinOxygen on April 23, 2013, 01:50:51 AM

4000+ BTC (net 15% management costs) for <3000 GH/s with a four month waiting period.

Vs.

80 BTC for >70 GH/s for batch 4.

Ummm...

3500 + 15% is roughly 4000 BTC

Assuming Avalon Batch 4 is 40BTC, why not just buy 100 Batch 4 units which should hash at 5000GH/s. No need to cut your fingers or do any work other than setting them up.

Whoops I gave away my plan Grin

I would REALLY hope Avalon batch #4 to be 25BTCish for 45GH/s and shipped at the beginning of June. If Yifu does that... Well, he'd be my hero. I wouldn't find it so strange given the fact that BFL started to ship indeed.

The price for batch 4 is still unknown. Please remember that at this stage, anyone can only estimate the total cost.

Let's see with the batch 3 costs which are a known item.

An Avalon ASIC unit with 4 modules and PSU costs 101 BTC for 85 Gh/s

That gives 85/101 = 0.84 Gh/s per BTC

Our estimate for 2800 Gh/s is roughly 3000-3500 BTC. That will give roughly the same hashrate of 0.8-0.9 Gh/s per BTC. The assembling and parts costs will be clear once Avalon releases the board design. We have used a conservative figure in our calculations. Any cost savings will be passed along to the investors.

peetah

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Activity: 364

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Quote from: Bitsaurus on April 23, 2013, 01:43:26 AM

Quote from: BitcoinOxygen on April 23, 2013, 01:50:51 AM

4000+ BTC (net 15% management costs) for <3000 GH/s with a four month waiting period.

Vs.

80 BTC for >70 GH/s for batch 4.

Ummm...

3500 + 15% is roughly 4000 BTC

Assuming Avalon Batch 4 is 40BTC, why not just buy 100 Batch 4 units which should hash at 5000GH/s. No need to cut your fingers or do any work other than setting them up.

Whoops I gave away my plan Grin

The management fee will be taken from the mining income and not from the setup costs. So funds needed is ~3500 BTC

Ok. My bad. 15 percent less income works even worse in your favour. As follows:

3500 BTC for 2400 GH/s. Batch 3 gives you 3500 BTC for 3400 GH/s. And since they price according to ROI, batch 4 will be even cheaper.

Bitsaurus

hero member

Activity: 873

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Quote from: Bitsaurus on April 23, 2013, 01:43:26 AM

Quote from: Inspector 2211 on April 23, 2013, 01:44:06 AM

4000+ BTC (net 15% management costs) for <3000 GH/s with a four month waiting period.

Vs.

80 BTC for >70 GH/s for batch 4.

Ummm...

3500 + 15% is roughly 4000 BTC

Assuming Avalon Batch 4 is 40BTC, why not just buy 100 Batch 4 units which should hash at 5000GH/s. No need to cut your fingers or do any work other than setting them up.

Whoops I gave away my plan Grin

The management fee will be taken from the mining income and not from the setup costs. So funds needed is ~3500 BTC

Yes the upfront cost is only 3500BTC. Assume it was just one buyer. Would he get back the full mining return on 2800GH/s? No, he gets back 85%. So essentially he would need a 115% ROI more or less to break even since there's a maintenance fee.

Even if you overclock you're only looking at 3TH.

I'm not mocking your plan, just saying the numbers don't really compete with what's out there like burnin's offering as noted above.

stripykitteh

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Activity: 1176

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CryptoTalk.Org - Get Paid for every Post!

Just thinking out loud, Burnin is proposing a service where he builds a USB-based PCB for 80 Eur which can hold 10 ASICs on it, so the cost of manufacturing a complete board is roughly 50% ASICs and 50% everything else. Your proposal has the "everything else" at 80%, i.e., four times as much as the cost of the ASICs.

Why are your other hardware costs so high?

BitcoinOxygen

sr. member

Activity: 336

Merit: 250

Quote from: BitcoinOxygen on April 23, 2013, 01:33:43 AM

Quote from: Inspector 2211 on April 23, 2013, 01:44:06 AM

have you ordered the chips or are you waiting for people to fund this project?
Regards

We are waiting for investors to fund this project and as soon as we hit 780 BTC we will order 10k of Avalon ASIC chips.

Good luck with that.
It's so massively overpriced, it's not even funny.
Let's assume someone wanted to buy boards with a total of 10000 ASICs on them. 3500 BTC is, whatever, $425000 for 2800 GH/s?
Seriously, man?

2800GH/s is the minimum speed our operation will run with.

We will overclock those chips to archive a much better hashrate once we have done the initial setup.

Rampion

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Quote from: BitcoinOxygen on April 23, 2013, 01:33:43 AM

Quote from: Bitsaurus on April 23, 2013, 01:43:26 AM

have you ordered the chips or are you waiting for people to fund this project?
Regards

We are waiting for investors to fund this project and as soon as we hit 780 BTC we will order 10k of Avalon ASIC chips.

Good luck with that.
It's so massively overpriced, it's not even funny.
Let's assume someone wanted to buy boards with a total of 10000 ASICs on them. 3500 BTC is, whatever, $425000 for 2800 GH/s?
Seriously, man?

Yeah, assembly 3,500BTC? I think they mistakenly added a zero, no way you spend 3,500BTC ($425k) to manufacture units with 10k chips.

Rampion

legendary

Activity: 1148

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Quote from: Bitsaurus on April 23, 2013, 01:43:26 AM

4000+ BTC (net 15% management costs) for <3000 GH/s with a four month waiting period.

Vs.

80 BTC for >70 GH/s for batch 4.

Ummm...

3500 + 15% is roughly 4000 BTC

Assuming Avalon Batch 4 is 40BTC, why not just buy 100 Batch 4 units which should hash at 5000GH/s. No need to cut your fingers or do any work other than setting them up.

Whoops I gave away my plan Grin

I would REALLY hope Avalon batch #4 to be 25BTCish for 45GH/s and shipped at the beginning of June. If Yifu does that... Well, he'd be my hero. I wouldn't find it so strange given the fact that BFL started to ship indeed.

BitcoinOxygen

sr. member

Activity: 336

Merit: 250

Quote from: BitcoinOxygen on April 23, 2013, 01:33:43 AM

4000+ BTC (net 15% management costs) for <3000 GH/s with a four month waiting period.

Vs.

80 BTC for >70 GH/s for batch 4.

Ummm...

3500 + 15% is roughly 4000 BTC

Assuming Avalon Batch 4 is 40BTC, why not just buy 100 Batch 4 units which should hash at 5000GH/s. No need to cut your fingers or do any work other than setting them up.

Whoops I gave away my plan Grin

The management fee will be taken from the mining income and not from the setup costs. So funds needed is ~3500 BTC

Inspector 2211

sr. member

Activity: 448

Merit: 250

have you ordered the chips or are you waiting for people to fund this project?
Regards

We are waiting for investors to fund this project and as soon as we hit 780 BTC we will order 10k of Avalon ASIC chips.

Good luck with that.
It's so massively overpriced, it's not even funny.
Let's assume someone wanted to buy boards with a total of 10000 ASICs on them. 3500 BTC is, whatever, $425000 for 2800 GH/s?
Seriously, man?

Bitsaurus

hero member

Activity: 873

Merit: 1007

Quote from: BitcoinOxygen on April 23, 2013, 01:33:43 AM

4000+ BTC (net 15% management costs) for <3000 GH/s with a four month waiting period.

Vs.

80 BTC for >70 GH/s for batch 4.

Ummm...

3500 + 15% is roughly 4000 BTC

Assuming Avalon Batch 4 is 40BTC, why not just buy 100 Batch 4 units which should hash at 5000GH/s. No need to cut your fingers or do any work other than setting them up.

Whoops I gave away my plan Grin

shibaji

full member

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