Topic: P2P currency exchange & Escrow services now illegal ! (Read 5504 times)

FUD/BS/Pile of crap.
Just another fun day in BTC land.

This is BS.

even so it's not worldwide

I understand that. It's not a question of the circumstances when you'll need to fill out the form; it's a question of why that form exists, what purpose that form serves, and how it can be used against you.

Probable cause is something I know a great deal about. Probable cause is always determined in court long after the events have already passed. If you motion to dismiss your case for lack of probable cause it's either up to you to establish why the LEO didn't have probable cause, or it's up to the LEO to provide evidence of probable cause depending on the procedure your State already has established. Different States differ in that respect to probable cause...

The one common denominator is that the LEO has the power to take action without probable cause if they feel strongly enough about their "gut" that they "think" they can manufacture some probable cause by the time you appear in court.

Honestly, Las Vegas is the last place I would compare to anything having to do with the law. Talk about Pocket Police... They might as well be Private Security.

If you walk around with $10,000 it's no different than walking around with $1,000 except for the huge target it places on your head. If you find yourself in a position where it becomes a problem, by then it's too late and you've already complicated everything. The police have no right to search you unless they are arresting you; but in this situation the limit of $9,999 is relevant. This is a situation where the Police are looking for any loop hole to exploit. I'm pointing out loopholes that were created solely to facilitate this...

I agree with what you're saying. It's not illegal to walk around with $10,000 and I never said it was. If you walk around with $10,000 and get arrested for something, even something unrelated; you will be asked to prove the origin of the cash. You'll have a very hard time getting your money back without proof of origin... They can charge you with a crime if they feel they have enough evidence, or release your cash. You will have no power over this process and it's much safer not to do transactions of over $10,000 in cash at any single point.

If you have a $100 bill and a drug dog hits at it, you can lose that money if the LEO want's to be a jerk.

I don't agree with the law as it is...

You need to re-read the links you have posted or gain a better understanding of them. The first link was a pdf for reporting cash TRANSACTIONS at $10k or higher. You can benefit from two different $6,000 transactions and have $12,000 on you as a result and not have to file that form.

As for the second link, you need to read up on what PROBABLE CAUSE is because that is what is necessary for a cop to take your money. Bare suspicion and probable cause are two very different concepts when it comes to law enforcement. I've lived in Las Vegas for a lot of years. People walk in and out of poker rooms with lots more than $10,000 all the time. So, in that circumstance, there wouldn't be probable cause. Now, if a cop witnessed someone walking away from a known drug house counting out a lot of money, there would possibly be probable cause to stop a suspect and investigate further.

Then again, I've seen video of a cop shooting a suspect in the back while his hands are in the air. None of the several other cops at the scene used deadly force so his actions aren't justified when applying the reasonable response standard (how other cops would react under similar circumstances). Cops are scum so while not illegal to walk around with $10k, dont...unless you want to make a street cop $10k richer.

You can call Bullshit on my interpretation all you wish. My interpretation of the law is just as meaningless as yours when standing before a Judge.

To your first point; absolutely... The more cash you carry the more likely you will be questioned about the source and about your intent while carrying it with you. The LEO can confiscate your cash if they choose to in most cases. As I mentioned; 97% of all paper currency is contaminated with drug traces.

Second point... Different LEO's will act differently in a given situation, the existence of a law is an opportunity for charges to be filed against you and further upheld in court. State, Local, or Federal law makes no difference... The Supremacy Clause works one way with Federal law upheld in all localities...

I'm not telling you that this is an A+B=C situation. You're likely in violation of other laws every day and yet you don't get in trouble... To say that you can't get in trouble with the law because you haven't been brought up on charges yet is something entirely different. If my wealth were on the line I would simply be cautious...

This apply to US citizens right? So much for a free country.

Just don't do bitcoin transactions face to face in a big city. Big city police departments are the ones with all the time and resources to set up stings for prostitution,  drugs, bitcoins,  etc. Podunk towns with two cops don't have time to bother with setting up stings. That said, I wouldn't trade bitcoins at a dunkin donuts for that matter.

Please amend your thread title to "P2P currency exchange & Escrow services now illegal in the United States!"

I'm calling bullshit on your interpretation of the law.

First.  There are many cases of confiscation without real cause of LESS THAN 10,000 USD and that's a major problem.

Second.  You reference "FBI", but frankly, I don't know anyone who has every been on the wrong side of an interaction with the FBI.  On the other hand, we all know people who have been stopped for traffic violations, DWI, minor drugs....etc....these are state and local cops and LEO.  They don't care one bit about your "FBI" regulations.  They enforce local and state law.

You can carry $10,000 on you as long as you also carry the proof of origin. Without the proof of origin your money will be confiscated if discovered and you will be able to provide proof to a magistrate or judge to reclaim your money. If you can't prove the origin you'll be able to appear in court and explain your situation.

If you have $9,999 on you and you pick up a $2 dollar bill you risk losing everything unless you have a withdrawal slip, Bill of Sale, or other valid documentation proving that an amount greater than or equal to $10,000 wasn't illegally procured.

Also, when you were carrying $12,000 in cash your money could have been confiscated and the burden of proving the origin would be on your shoulders.

Also, the physical coins are more like fancy wallets holding a debit card to an account with x amount (whatever the exchange rate is.) That wouldn't fall under the same category...

http://www.fincen.gov/forms/files/fin8300_cashover10k.pdf

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/white_collar/asset-forfeiture
Read down to "Burden of Proof."

By not carrying $10,000 at any given point without proof of origin; there would be no probable cause for an officer to confiscate your cash for violating Section 6050I (26 United States Code
(U.S.C.) 6050I) and 31 U.S.C. 5331.

Even further; 97% of paper currency will test positive for drug traces...

Edit:

You really wouldn't have to worry about it unless you consent to an officer allowing a search of your belongings, or if the officer has seen you commit a crime and would be able to prove probable cause at the time when you were searched.

Are you saying it is illegal to cary more than $10,000 in cash on your person?

I will need a reputable link from you to even begin to believe that one.

So I can carry $9,999 and that is perfectly ok?

I cannot carry $10,001 - that is illegal.

What about exacly $10,000

What if I have $9,999 on me and I find a $2 bill on the sidewalk.  Is it then illegal for me to pick it up?

Note illegal and "not wise" are two very different things.

BTW:  This one time, at band camp, I bought a car from a guy and paid him $12,000 in cash.  Was I breaking the law just by transporting the cash to the sale?  

EDIT:  One more question, I have a 1,000 BTC physical coin in my pocket.  Am I breaking a law?  Thanks.

I agree with your opinion, based on the excerpt above quoted.  Note that's not the entire law...

Come on...

It's not illegal to sell Bitcoin for yourself; you can sell $9,999 worth of BTC at any given time as long as they are yours and for your benefit only. No "straw man" exchanges where somebody sells Bitcoin "for a friend."

You can sell more than $9,999 worth of BTC as long as you don't carry more than $10,000 USD in cash on your person at any given time.

The law doesn't distinguish between virtual currencies and DVD players; it includes virtual currencies in the legal definition so that they will be covered under the same law that other valuables are.

Basically, if what you claim is true then it's illegal to sell anything over $300.

As the law is written: you can't sell anything worth more than $300 for anybody other than yourself under Florida law...

Just listen to yourself you sound like a scared little girl for something that has nothing to be afraid of either your retarded our your attorney is retarded.

It does sort of that.

The phrase "as a business service performed for the benefit of another" should be read exactly as worded.  Defines brokerage and agent relationships.
Those are not allowed, except for the money dealers.  

However, if they were your own bitcoins and cash, neither buying or selling would be disallowed.

An interesting question would be whether an in between agent who "matched buyers and sellers" without comingling funds would be considered a money dealer.

Example:

You have 2.87 btc to sell in USD in state TX?
Anyone want to buy 2.87 btc in USD in state TX?
No, not 2.22.  2.87 exactly, and only USD, and only TX?

Yes early last year, they made it illegal to sell more than $1000 BTC per day...FinCen did this.  Apparently the # is $300 in Florida.

Don't take my word for it or the others in the thread who are clueless and will say I'm incorrect... Google it yourself.

It sounds like they may have made it even more restrictive lately.

Florida state law is different than US law and much of what you are discussing is Florida law. Fincen is the US agency, not related to Florida.

"The first ruling states that, to the extent a user creates or “mines” a convertible virtual currency solely for a user’s own purposes, the user is not a money transmitter under the BSA. The second states that a company purchasing and selling convertible virtual currency as an investment exclusively for the company’s benefit is not a money transmitter,” the release states."
- http://www.coindesk.com/fincen-bitcoin-miners-investors-money-transmitters

"The second ruling enabled companies to buy virtual currencies for themselves, selling them on an exchange later for their own purposes."
- http://www.coindesk.com/congressional-leaders-foundation-praise-fincen-guidance

 ie NOT illegal in US. But again Florida is operating under their own more restrictive MSB rules.

I was thinking that the reaction from the U.S Senate and Ben Bernanke was too positive, interesting

The following:


seems to make trading through LocalBitcoins OK, as long as you don't claim to make a business out of it.