Topic: Palestine & israel? What do you think about that situation? - page 9. (Read 15034 times)

Okay, Lets start from there. What would you consider a country. Also considering the existence of natives in an area. What is accepted for you for a minority to start a country and how to deal with the existent natives? Lets see if Israel is one.

I agree with you and they should find the peace.



What about israel? If palestine wasn't a country then also isreal isn't a country.

Yes, there is war. Did I say there wasn't? The point is that there are clear and objective facts, and those are of interest to me. Mere opinions are not very useful.

By the way, Palestine is not a country, and it never was.

I agree that u9y42's post was very good, and I will respond to it (probably in multiple parts). It was a big relief to see someone write such a post. Instead of ignoring what I'd said, u9y42 took the statements I claimed as true and presented counterevidence. People on this thread have been unable or unwilling to do this so far (except, to some extent, the Golden Dawn guy). I understand this is a difficult thing for most people to do. u9y42 probably was able to do this because he's followed the issue for a while, reading from different sources and reading historical information. If the rest of you want to someday be able to write a post like that, please, start reading -- and not just the things that you agree with.

I have been talking down to people and belittling them. Why? Let me tell you. Jew-hatred has been a serious issue for a very long time. Less than a hundred years ago six mllion Jews were systematically exterminated in Europe. There are people on this thread who openly deny this, and I suspect others on the thread who believe it's exaggerated. Most people in Western countries believe it happened, as do I. I suspect most people of the Islamic world either have never heard of it, or have heard it's a lie. That's the world today.

Some of those Jews escaped, and in some cases they escaped to a territory under British controlled territory (formerly part of the Ottoman empire) called Palestine. Some Jews had always lived there. Many other Jews had already immigrated to this territory before Europe's troubles, partly because Britain had promised a homeland for the Jews in the region in the Balfour Declaration.

Now instead of being described as immigrants fleeing persecution, people are pretending they rode in on tanks and started demolishing houses of peaceful people. Does Israel have tanks now? Yes. But that's not how they got there. They got the tanks after they arrived and after it became clear so many neighboring countries were determined to destroy them. After the neighboring countries failed (on multiple occasions) to destroy Israel, those neighbors continued to use the Palestinians as proxies to attack Israel.

Now we have people comparing modern Israelis to the Nazis. People are spreading one-sided propaganda and a cartoonish view of the history and of the situation.

Why is this happening? I honestly believe this is happening because a majority of the world hates Jews. They are determined to undermine Israel as a legitimate country so that someday when Israel is destroyed people can accept it -- even celebrate it. The world hates Jews so much it is actively trying to bring about a second holocaust, and justify it preemptively.

I'm not trying to convince you -- or any one else -- of this. However, if you believed you were watching this happen, how would you behave towards the people trying to preemptively justify a second holocaust? Would you try to reason with them? Convince them they're wrong?

The OP could've just made a spelling error when he wrote "israel" instead of "Israel," but if that were the case it would've been corrected. It's perfectly clear to me (and should be to everyone) that he does it on purpose. Why? I submit that he purposefully writes "israel" to push the idea that it isn't a legitimate country. And he's doing it because he wants it destroyed. How should I react to someone like that? To someone who spends his time on a forum attempting to justify and bring about a second holocaust? Given this view of him, I've been extremely fucking polite, trust me.

And that's just one minor example.

It's frustrating. I wish I could stop a second holocaust, but obviously I can't. I think it'll probably happen, and we'll see video of Muslims around the world celebrating, the way Palestinians celebrated on September 11. Western leaders will say it was Israel's own fault for not coming to an agreement.

And I'll get to work on nanorobots that invade and deactivate the testicles of humans.

Aren't you interested to know the "source" in the original language? I'm also interested in the facts and I am still saying the israeli government invaded the palestinian land.



This is one of the fact that I am arguing here, there are a lot of other facts.

No my friend. Truth is determined by the victor. You still live in the smokescreen they made since it is still a relatively recent history. But your grand kids will see it clear as sunlight. Same as "Islamic expansions" and "The crusades", It eventually became clear how all those were about greed and bloodthirst. Many monstrosities came out and now they are public knowledge. Palestine is a neighbouring country. People that fled and died there are our own neighbours and flesh and blood. I am sad to tell you that yes, TV and wikipedia fed you shit for a long time. There is WAR there for the past 60-70 years.

Is it justified to wage war on other people because they were originally kicked out of Europe? Blood is blood and they are ALL guilty.

Yes. This happens frequently in warfare. As you say, there are many different reasons why all those Arabs left Israel. To their credit, the Jews can point out that some 20% of the Israeli population is still comprised of Arabs, while there are hardly any Jews in the Arab nations (before 1948, some 750,000 Jews used to live in these nations.

Some Arabs were expelled during the 1948 war. Others left of their own free will, in order to make room for the Arab armies so that they could more easily kill Jews. Others ran away in fear of retaliation. There are many different reasons why all those Arabs left Israel during the 1948 war.

Of course there were clashes before the 1948 war as well. Through 1947 hostilities increased, and there were many cases of Jews being under siege and attack by Arabs, and Jewish militia moving in to aid them. This often meant removing Arabs that were standing between the militias and the Jews that were under siege or attack.

It will be wrong to say that the Arabs were not expelled. Most of the migration was forced. But at the same time, I would say that the same would have been the fate of the Jews, had they lost the war.

I'm not really interested in anyone's version. I'm interested in the facts.

I think he wanted to say you should read and heard their version in the original language, because the translation it 'always' a little bit different than the one in the original language.

Not sure I follow. Which militia are you referring to again? Haifa is a place, not a militia.

I don't understand Arabic or Hebrew. The truth is determined by facts. Are you saying that Wikipedia is factually wrong?

Would you mind elaborating? Why is my the statement absurd?

No of course I would not mind. חֵיפָה is one of many examples to cross my mind. April 1948. A city flattened on top of its thrown out civilians in every district. Do you want personal stories told by my best friend's grandfather?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haifa#Government

The funny thing is, you should read the Arabic version. It is like it s talking about a parallel universe where things went VERY much different. Yet because one group speaks the language you do, what they say is truth. Consider maybe the other side is either severely mouth-gagged or dead.

And yes your second statement is very much absurd and not true at all. Without diplomatic reasons there is a slight chance you can go there either for you getting blocked by Arabian governments or theirs.

Your comparisons fail for a number of reasons, but I will mention a couple here:

Israel is a beacon of freedom and democracy in the area. Minorities are granted equal rights and protection under law. Arabic is even an official language in Israel. Individual rights are extremely important. For example, where else in the area would you expect to see homosexuals parading through the streets celebrating their sexual orientation as they do yearly in Tel Aviv? Comparing this to people from societies where freedom of speech is non-existent and where homosexuals are executed is quite a stretch!

The Jews in Palestine mostly settled down in areas where there weren't any existing inhabitants in the first place. Palestine was not a country of its own but rather just a rather big and rather empty area under different rulers. I'm not sure why you think Jews shouldn't be allowed to make use of freely available space in the middle of nowhere, where no one has laid any claims to the land in the first place.

What are these no-go areas for natives related to Israel, if I may ask?

Would you mind clarifying which militia you are referring to which is telling people to vacate in 48 hours?

Remember, plenty of Arabs migrated to Palestine as well (the Jews created a higher standard of living, which also attracted Arabs to those areas). Do you consider them to be unwanted immigrants too?

Zionists aren't a people, but rather a movement working towards a homeland for the Jews. And they succeeded.

Palestine was not someone else's country, but rather an area under British administration in the years before Israel was founded.

I'm not sure who you are referring to as the original inhabitants, as Palestine had a rather small population before the Jewish immigration started around 1900.

Yes, Arabs were expelled from Israel, but this was because of the war that several Arab countries started in an attempt to wipe out the newly founded state. As a matter of fact, there were about 50/50 Arabs and Jews in Israel originally. Had the Arabs not started the war, all those people would not have been refugees today.

As for defending themselves, do you really consider launching rockets at civilians a form of defense?

This is not true. Israeli Arabs do have their full rights, and they also have laws protecting them as a minority. Furthermore, Arabic is an official language in Israel.

You can't expect Israel to give equal rights to foreigners, and no other state on earth does that.

Many of the Zionists that worked towards the creation of Israel were Socialists and Atheists. So no, the religious angle is not really relevant. Israel was founded as a secular state by a largely secular group of people.

And they didn't expel the Palestinians in 1947. The large wave of Palestinian refugees was created in 1948, when Arabs attacked Israel in an attempt to wipe it out.