Paper bitcoins (bitnotes). Is it worth it? - page 4.

Mastsetad

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Quote from: Factmine on December 12, 2016, 12:08:48 PM

Quote from: DimensionZ on December 12, 2016, 11:57:35 AM

Well let's think about this issue again. I beg you pardon but I still believe this is going to be an issue. Let's assume I have deposited 12 coins and have gotten 100 bitnotes 0.1BTC each. Let's assume 0.1BTC is valued $10 fictitiously. Now let's assume we need to pay for our dinner which costs $27.99. On top of that let's assume that the Bitcoin price will be fluctuating like it is now and the price constantly changes every other couple of minutes or so. We don't have to tip the waiter and want to pay the exact sum it's on our tab. How would we manage to assemble the exact same amount with our bitnotes without going short or paying more? Mind you the Bitcoin price is changing as we are talking to the waiter and fiddling with our bitnotes.

I think you failed to assume something here. First, the assumption here is that by the time we have bitcoin notes and coins (physical coins like dimes, quarters, etc), there has been great adoption of the Bitcoin already. If there has not yet been a great adoption then you would not likely be paying bitcoins at a restaurant. Second, if there has been great adoption, then the prices for sure has stabilized already or, (pushing our luck here) there is no other currency already but bitcoin itself.

If you assume that there are no other currency but bitcoin, then you don't even have to convert your money into dollars. But if there are still other currency beside bitcoin, like the USD, then you can convert it similar to having Yen, Euro, Dong, Etc. The prices doesn't fluctuate that much hence solving the problem.

Who says that after a great adoption the price of bitcoin would get stabilized? Are you assuming that the great adoption will change the way bitcoin works? Or the world will make a new version of bitcoin which would be controlled and the people will decide if it will be stable or keep fluctuating?

DimensionZ

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Shit, did I leave the stove on?

There is nothing to assume about Bitcoin replacing fiat because this just isn't going to happen even in your wildest dreams. What we are speculating about in this thread is Bitcoin getting transacted offline which in itself is an oxymoron by the way. How can you be sure that Bitcoin's price will stabilize itself in the future? It could in 150 years from now when there is nothing more to mine but that's again an assumption. Also, how can you correlate Bitcoin adoption with price stabilization? Have you seen a Bitcoin live price ticker recently? I challenge you to watch one carefully and if you don't see the values changing in 5 minutes or less I will eat my shoe.

Factmine

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Quote from: DimensionZ on December 12, 2016, 11:57:35 AM

Well let's think about this issue again. I beg you pardon but I still believe this is going to be an issue. Let's assume I have deposited 12 coins and have gotten 100 bitnotes 0.1BTC each. Let's assume 0.1BTC is valued $10 fictitiously. Now let's assume we need to pay for our dinner which costs $27.99. On top of that let's assume that the Bitcoin price will be fluctuating like it is now and the price constantly changes every other couple of minutes or so. We don't have to tip the waiter and want to pay the exact sum it's on our tab. How would we manage to assemble the exact same amount with our bitnotes without going short or paying more? Mind you the Bitcoin price is changing as we are talking to the waiter and fiddling with our bitnotes.

I think you failed to assume something here. First, the assumption here is that by the time we have bitcoin notes and coins (physical coins like dimes, quarters, etc), there has been great adoption of the Bitcoin already. If there has not yet been a great adoption then you would not likely be paying bitcoins at a restaurant. Second, if there has been great adoption, then the prices for sure has stabilized already or, (pushing our luck here) there is no other currency already but bitcoin itself.

If you assume that there are no other currency but bitcoin, then you don't even have to convert your money into dollars. But if there are still other currency beside bitcoin, like the USD, then you can convert it similar to having Yen, Euro, Dong, Etc. The prices doesn't fluctuate that much hence solving the problem.

DimensionZ

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Shit, did I leave the stove on?

Well let's think about this issue again. I beg you pardon but I still believe this is going to be an issue. Let's assume I have deposited 12 coins and have gotten 100 bitnotes 0.1BTC each. Let's assume 0.1BTC is valued $10 fictitiously. Now let's assume we need to pay for our dinner which costs $27.99. On top of that let's assume that the Bitcoin price will be fluctuating like it is now and the price constantly changes every other couple of minutes or so. We don't have to tip the waiter and want to pay the exact sum it's on our tab. How would we manage to assemble the exact same amount with our bitnotes without going short or paying more? Mind you the Bitcoin price is changing as we are talking to the waiter and fiddling with our bitnotes.

Factmine

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I still don't think it will be able to buy normal daily stuff like coffee, food, etc. To have this kind of use, then we have to assume that the whole world will be using bitcoin and all the merchants and services will be also using it. People must accept bitcoin or else it will be useless to even implement a paper bitcoin system for offline transactions. If for example, a bank implements paper bitcoin and you go to you local store and try to pay using your bitcoin bills. You approach the clerk and handed your bitcoin bills, most likely he will be confused and ask you what the hell did you just pay him with.

deisik

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Quote from: DimensionZ on December 12, 2016, 11:23:11 AM

The issue I find with the banks being the sole provider and processor of these Bitcoin certificates is that you could hold certificates denominated in just one face value. And one will need a lot of these papers in their wallet if they want to transact different amounts when buying stuff or services

I see your point, but it is not a big deal really

If we assume that Bitcoin banks would be interested in spreading their paper notes as much as possible, we should also assume that they will take care of this issue as well. The easiest way to do that would be to exchange their own bitnotes of one denomination for a few notes of lower denominations. On the other hand, if someone decides to deposit, say, 10 bitcoins, the bank could give them either 10 bitnotes each worth of 1 bitcoin, or 100 bitnotes each worth of 0.1 bitcoin

Quote from: DimensionZ on December 12, 2016, 11:23:11 AM

Do you think this paper Bitcoin certification system would work for buying everyday items like a coffee and a sandwich at lunch or movie tickets or a bottle of water? Maybe parking tickets? Isn't it more convenient to grab a metal fiat coin and pay with that and be on your way?

At least, people wouldn't be constantly whining then about Bitcoin not being suitable for offline transactions

DimensionZ

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Shit, did I leave the stove on?

The issue I find with the banks being the sole provider and processor of these Bitcoin certificates is that you could hold certificates denominated in just one face value. And one will need a lot of these papers in their wallet if they want to transact different amounts when buying stuff or services. Do you think this paper Bitcoin certification system would work for buying everyday items like a coffee and a sandwich at lunch or movie tickets or a bottle of water? Maybe parking tickets? Isn't it more convenient to grab a metal fiat coin and pay with that and be on your way?

deisik

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Quote from: DimensionZ on December 12, 2016, 11:00:08 AM

Okay so if only the banks will be issuing these paper certificates, what denominations will these be issued in? Like $100, $500, $1000? And do you suggest these certificates be used only for securing loans and paying of debts or will there be other usage for them?

Naturally, that would largely depend on the current exchange rate and how much you could potentially buy with the lowest denomination. Usually, governments issue change with the lowest coin being able to buy a matchbox (or something to that tune). So you could estimate the lowest denomination of bitnotes required for making purchases. Obviously, there should be a bitnote of 1 bitcoin. Whether it would be worth to have higher denominations is questionable but once there was a $100,000 banknote...

Which was in fact a gold certificate used only by the Federal Reserve Banks (i.e. it was not circulated)

Regarding their usage, they could be used like any paper money, i.e. for buying things and paying for services

DimensionZ

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Shit, did I leave the stove on?

Okay so if only the banks will be issuing these paper certificates, what denominations will these be issued in? Like $100, $500, $1000? And do you suggest these certificates be used only for securing loans and paying of debts or will there be other usage for them?

Taki

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I don't know. What the spence to call bitcoin as bit coin when it's going to be papered? Then it will be papercoin! Haha Grin

Well, maybe I just can't imagine bitcoin papered, cause all it's history is made in crypto sense and that is why people love bitcoin.

deisik

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Quote from: Red Fish on December 12, 2016, 10:19:57 AM

Currently banks are not working with Bitcoins. Even if they start to work, they will most probably just make Blockchain transactions. Why they must use paper Bitcoins, if just some Bitcoin users use paper Bitcoins. Even Bitcoin use in bank sector is future, currently on one bank use Bitcoin.

It is very simple really

If Bitcoin banks should spring up, they will be earning through Bitcoin, obviously. Thereby, they will be vitally interested in the success of Bitcoin, right? But Bitcoin is often reproached for not being very useful for offline transactions (which is partially true). Paper bitcoins (or bitnotes) would greatly help in this respect since people would use them as any other paper money out there (say, dollars). The only drawback is that Bitcoin banks would have to withstand a great temptation to issue more bitnotes than they have real bitcoins in their "vaults" (i.e. wallets)

Quote from: DimensionZ on December 12, 2016, 10:43:39 AM

So who is going to issue these Bitcoin paper certificates? The banks themselves or people would be able to write themselves some certificates as well in the same fashion as we write checks today on a paper pad?

Bitcoin banks will issue them, allegedly in correspondence with the amount of real bitcoins they have

DimensionZ

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Shit, did I leave the stove on?

So who is going to issue these Bitcoin paper certificates? The banks themselves or people would be able to write themselves some certificates as well in the same fashion as we write checks today on a paper pad?

Red Fish

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Currently banks are not working with Bitcoins. Even if they start to work, they will most probably just make Blockchain transactions. Why they must use paper Bitcoins, if just some Bitcoin users use paper Bitcoins. Even Bitcoin use in bank sector is future, currently on one bank use Bitcoin.

RodeoX

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The revolution will be monetized!

It would not surprise me to see paper or coins backed by BTC catch on just as deisik described. Personally I am not a big fan of theses ideas because they introduce opportunities to counterfeit and because it'/s just a piece of paper. It is why I don't buy "paper gold" either. In that system you pay for gold and get paper and a promise. No thanks. Embarrassed

deisik

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Quote from: freshman777 on December 12, 2016, 06:22:35 AM

Quote from: deisik on December 12, 2016, 04:58:32 AM

I think that you are sarcastic

If banks start defaulting on their bitnotes (I will use this term to avoid confusion with paper wallets), they will be scamming on people just like any other Bitcoin scams out there. To say that it wouldn't hurt Bitcoin is basically equal to saying that scams don't hurt Bitcoin either, which is obviously very far from truth. People even tend to blame Bitcoin itself for facilitating the spread of such fraudulent schemes

There is not a bit of sarcasm. The current technical design of Bitcoin doesn't permit scaling other than via centralized hubs (banks, payment processors). Centralized hubs guarantee abuses and scamming will happen. So what? Some people compare Bitcoin to gold, digital gold. Scams in the history of gold didn't seem to affect its attractiveness. Besides, as I said, damage will be limited (like it was in the bank runs for fractional gold in the 19th century), compared to infinite damage of bail-outs/ins coming from limitless money printing when there is no hard asset to redeem backing currency in circulation.

Wasn't I telling exactly the same in this thread?

I'm heavily inclined to think myself that centralization greatly contributes to scamming and abusing the system, but this doesn't mean that we should just silently accept it. Gold didn't lose its shine and lustre for being used as a tool for scamming in the past, but this might not be the case with Bitcoin. In this way, it is utterly important to develop the means which would allow the transparency of these "centralized hubs". It is not possible with gold, but is it not possible with Bitcoin either, given its nature (I mean the blockchain technology)?

pereira4

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Maybe it will be a good idea as a transitional model to full blown digital only scenario, because old people are too dumb to deal with technology and they only understand coins and bills, so we could make some sort of printed bitcoins but they could never be outside of the blockchain, otherwise you create the same problem all over again within the bitcoin ecosystem.

Xester

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Paper bitcoins is a great idea if only bitcoins have replaced fiat currency. But given bitcoins situation right now, fiat currency is still the legal tender in the world and so it cannot allow paper bitcoins to be used in the market since there are no mechanisms to double check it, there maybe scammers who will print more paper bitcoins since there are no established agency yet to function and monitor its movements.

buwaytress

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Quote from: OnkelPaul on December 11, 2016, 12:39:01 PM

If the paper notes contain a bitcoin address where the denoted amount is held, they could be checked occasionally while a merchant holds them who is online. That still leaves the problem that separate paper notes could contain the same bitcoin address, either because the bank cheats and prints several notes with the same address, or because a counterfeiter creates a fake note with the same address.

Onkel Paul

Correct. While paper bitcoin really is easily implemented as a mere physical documentation of the ledger or blockchain asset, a transaction still has not taken place with the handing over of paper bitcoin.

Unless private keys are somehow transferred along with the paper money there is no way to ensure the bitcoin on paper can't also be spent first neither can counterfeiting be prevented or checked without electronic access.

freshman777

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Quote from: deisik on December 12, 2016, 04:58:32 AM

I think that you are sarcastic

If banks start defaulting on their bitnotes (I will use this term to avoid confusion with paper wallets), they will be scamming on people just like any other Bitcoin scams out there. To say that it wouldn't hurt Bitcoin is basically equal to saying that scams don't hurt Bitcoin either, which is obviously very far from truth. People even tend to blame Bitcoin itself for facilitating the spread of such fraudulent schemes

There is not a bit of sarcasm. The current technical design of Bitcoin doesn't permit scaling other than via centralized hubs (banks, payment processors). Centralized hubs guarantee abuses and scamming will happen. So what? Some people compare Bitcoin to gold, digital gold. Scams in the history of gold didn't seem to affect its attractiveness. Besides, as I said, damage will be limited (like it was in the bank runs for fractional gold in the 19th century), compared to infinite damage of bail-outs/ins coming from limitless money printing when there is no hard asset to redeem backing currency in circulation.

azguard

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This would not be good idea if someone is start printing it it will end up controlling it maybe this is my point of view but i have some bad feeling ans i dont like this idea or speculation. Who will then be in charge for printing government and that is main i dont like this who else would be able to print it

Topic: Paper bitcoins (bitnotes). Is it worth it? - page 4. (Read 3837 times)