Paying full nodes , impossible at this point ?

odolvlobo

legendary

Activity: 4522

Merit: 3426

Quote from: xyzzy099 on March 18, 2016, 02:25:36 PM

I believe that one of the selling points for the Lightning Network is that bitcoin node operators can make transaction fees by serving as an intermediary in LN transactions.

Anyone can be a Lightning network "intermediary" and you don't need a Bitcoin full node. A "intermediary" that supplies liquidity to the network can charge a fee for that service.

Similarly, a full Bitcoin node could charge a fee for transaction and block data. There is no need to pay full nodes out of the block reward.

rienelber

full member

Activity: 154

Merit: 100

Quote from: alani123 on March 18, 2016, 02:33:28 PM

Nothing is imposible but for such a thing to be viable we'd first need a way to accurately know which nodes are contributing nodes and which are fake/imitators. A reward would surely attract the latter. Now, embeding such a reward into bitcoin's protocol would be a whole other story as it would require a fork and the agreement of miners.

I see plenty potential in this ideia, it might be a nice inprovement in the technology...

alani123

legendary

Activity: 2422

Merit: 1451

Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform

Nothing is imposible but for such a thing to be viable we'd first need a way to accurately know which nodes are contributing nodes and which are fake/imitators. A reward would surely attract the latter. Now, embeding such a reward into bitcoin's protocol would be a whole other story as it would require a fork and the agreement of miners.

xyzzy099

legendary

Activity: 1066

Merit: 1098

I believe that one of the selling points for the Lightning Network is that bitcoin node operators can make transaction fees by serving as an intermediary in LN transactions.

OmegaStarScream

staff

Activity: 3500

Merit: 6152

Quote from: pereira4 on March 18, 2016, 01:45:46 PM

The debate of how to incentive running nodes is a long one, it has been considered for ages. I think it's a very tricky subject, it may seem like common sense to give some money to people running nodes but apparently there are some serious tradeoffs. If you search on the subject in developers like nullc in reddit you may find some valuable information on this.

I will do that , In the meantime I will appreciate if someone could submit this topic on Reddit (since I don't have an account already) , maybe someone with enough knowledge could come and give us some information's about this matter.

pereira4

legendary

Activity: 1610

Merit: 1183

The debate of how to incentive running nodes is a long one, it has been considered for ages. I think it's a very tricky subject, it may seem like common sense to give some money to people running nodes but apparently there are some serious tradeoffs. If you search on the subject in developers like nullc in reddit you may find some valuable information on this.

calkob

hero member

Activity: 1106

Merit: 521

Quote from: shorena on March 16, 2016, 03:22:44 PM

The question is how do you distinguish a full node from a fake full node. Lets assume that is solved. Do you pay a node thats barely running (e.g. 2 hours a day) and holding 8 connections (no inbound connections) the same as one that is online 24/7 and holds >100 connections?

Is there no way of knowing these details or would someone have to write a program to find them out?

pedrog

legendary

Activity: 2786

Merit: 1031

Quote from: shorena on March 17, 2016, 04:04:39 PM

Quote from: Amph on March 17, 2016, 02:51:48 AM

Quote from: -ck on March 16, 2016, 06:30:48 PM

Been discussed MANY times before since people want to be rewarded for running a full node as some kind of "node reward". The short answer is: It's impossible. There's no way to prove you are a real node relaying real transactions or data without some "proof of work" - and guess what, "proof of work" is precisely what mining is. Then there'd be exactly the same arms race there is for regular mining rewards as there is for node rewards, the node rewards being in essence an altcoin built on top of the existing bitcoin, making it not worth mining "node rewards".

i guess it can be done with sidechain, where those full node can become a sort of light miners and have reward from the fee that are retrieved from the token exchanged with bitcoin

Id rather use my CPU cycles for something else though. I will pay for my node(s) as long as I can afford it. Its a worthy investment even if its just for the knowledge gained. It also allows me to do things I wouldnt be able to do without them, e.g. generate my own stats or consistantly rebroadcast unconfirmed TX from a well connected 24/7 node.

In the future, with the Internet of Things we might be paid for our full nodes, not for block relaying but for other services our full node machine can provide to other machines, 21 computer/software is an example of how this can work.

I've just read an article about this subject, check it out:

https://medium.com/@21/ping21-earn-bitcoin-by-monitoring-uptime-and-latency-807f212509f4

shorena

copper member

Activity: 1498

Merit: 1528

No I dont escrow anymore.

Quote from: Amph on March 17, 2016, 02:51:48 AM

Quote from: -ck on March 16, 2016, 06:30:48 PM

Been discussed MANY times before since people want to be rewarded for running a full node as some kind of "node reward". The short answer is: It's impossible. There's no way to prove you are a real node relaying real transactions or data without some "proof of work" - and guess what, "proof of work" is precisely what mining is. Then there'd be exactly the same arms race there is for regular mining rewards as there is for node rewards, the node rewards being in essence an altcoin built on top of the existing bitcoin, making it not worth mining "node rewards".

i guess it can be done with sidechain, where those full node can become a sort of light miners and have reward from the fee that are retrieved from the token exchanged with bitcoin

Id rather use my CPU cycles for something else though. I will pay for my node(s) as long as I can afford it. Its a worthy investment even if its just for the knowledge gained. It also allows me to do things I wouldnt be able to do without them, e.g. generate my own stats or consistantly rebroadcast unconfirmed TX from a well connected 24/7 node.

Amph

legendary

Activity: 3248

Merit: 1070

Quote from: -ck on March 16, 2016, 06:30:48 PM

Been discussed MANY times before since people want to be rewarded for running a full node as some kind of "node reward". The short answer is: It's impossible. There's no way to prove you are a real node relaying real transactions or data without some "proof of work" - and guess what, "proof of work" is precisely what mining is. Then there'd be exactly the same arms race there is for regular mining rewards as there is for node rewards, the node rewards being in essence an altcoin built on top of the existing bitcoin, making it not worth mining "node rewards".

i guess it can be done with sidechain, where those full node can become a sort of light miners and have reward from the fee that are retrieved from the token exchanged with bitcoin

-ck

legendary

Activity: 4088

Merit: 1631

Ruu \o/

Quote from: OmegaStarScream on March 17, 2016, 01:37:51 AM

Ye I kinda had the same question but how DASH are doing it ?

The answer to that is likely "Badly, in an exploitable way." But no, I haven't looked at the code myself (nor have an interest in doing so), so it's pure speculation.

OmegaStarScream

staff

Activity: 3500

Merit: 6152

Quote from: shorena on March 16, 2016, 03:22:44 PM

The question is how do you distinguish a full node from a fake full node. Lets assume that is solved. Do you pay a node thats barely running (e.g. 2 hours a day) and holding 8 connections (no inbound connections) the same as one that is online 24/7 and holds >100 connections?

Ye I kinda had the same question but how DASH are doing it ? or Maidsafe is planning to do it ? I suppose for what comes to Maidsafe it's peer to peer , so once you close the node , you stop getting paid or something like that ?

AliceWonderMiscreations

full member

Activity: 182

Merit: 107

Quote from: MingLee on March 16, 2016, 06:44:16 PM

Quote from: -ck on March 16, 2016, 06:30:48 PM

Been discussed MANY times before since people want to be rewarded for running a full node as some kind of "node reward". The short answer is: It's impossible. There's no way to prove you are a real node relaying real transactions or data without some "proof of work" - and guess what, "proof of work" is precisely what mining is. Then there'd be exactly the same arms race there is for regular mining rewards as there is for node rewards, the node rewards being in essence an altcoin built on top of the existing bitcoin, making it not worth mining "node rewards".

Having a Proof-of-Work system certainly would be an interesting concept for Bitcoin, but I doubt most people could get behind it.

This would only turn Bitcoin into another system of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer.

There is no system that will prevent that except for bloody revolution which always always eventually happens, and will happen again fairly soon. Bitcoin may be the only safe place to keep your value when it does happen.

AliceWonderMiscreations

full member

Activity: 182

Merit: 107

Quote from: shorena on March 16, 2016, 03:22:44 PM

The question is how do you distinguish a full node from a fake full node.

Bingo.

For me the incentive in running a full node is to help the network. It's not really needed, there are plenty of full nodes in Northern California and Western US - but in some parts of the world, finding peers with a low ping time is really hard.

Also the incentive for me, I don't have to trust someone else to verify transactions.

MingLee

hero member

Activity: 490

Merit: 520

Quote from: -ck on March 16, 2016, 06:30:48 PM

Been discussed MANY times before since people want to be rewarded for running a full node as some kind of "node reward". The short answer is: It's impossible. There's no way to prove you are a real node relaying real transactions or data without some "proof of work" - and guess what, "proof of work" is precisely what mining is. Then there'd be exactly the same arms race there is for regular mining rewards as there is for node rewards, the node rewards being in essence an altcoin built on top of the existing bitcoin, making it not worth mining "node rewards".

Having a Proof-of-Work system certainly would be an interesting concept for Bitcoin, but I doubt most people could get behind it.

This would only turn Bitcoin into another system of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer.

-ck

legendary

Activity: 4088

Merit: 1631

Ruu \o/

Been discussed MANY times before since people want to be rewarded for running a full node as some kind of "node reward". The short answer is: It's impossible. There's no way to prove you are a real node relaying real transactions or data without some "proof of work" - and guess what, "proof of work" is precisely what mining is. Then there'd be exactly the same arms race there is for regular mining rewards as there is for node rewards, the node rewards being in essence an altcoin built on top of the existing bitcoin, making it not worth mining "node rewards".

countryfree

legendary

Activity: 3066

Merit: 1047

Your country may be your worst enemy

Quote from: OmegaStarScream on March 16, 2016, 12:21:29 PM

I was wondering if it would be possible (easily) for the Core developers to simply edit the source and make the Full nodes gets % of bitcoin from what the miners are getting on the first place ? something like DASH is doing or Maidsafe network is planning to do . and what do you think about it ?

I don't like the idea as this would increase the volume of data and require more computing power. If you run a node with over 50 connections, the difference would be easy to notice, and since I'm a supporter of larger block sizes, I'm against anything which could slow nodes.

shorena

copper member

Activity: 1498

Merit: 1528

No I dont escrow anymore.

Quote from: unamis76 on March 16, 2016, 04:28:14 PM

Quote from: shorena on March 16, 2016, 04:16:35 PM

Quote from: unamis76 on March 16, 2016, 04:08:53 PM

-snip-
Suggestion box is open in order to avoid fake nodes

I wish I had a solution, but for now Im fine paying 100 EUR a year to run a full node.

Slightly bit offtopic, but can you disclose what host do you have your node in?

I'm also fine with having VPS acting as nodes, and that's my way to contribute instead of directly donating to nodes. And I guess that's the key to have many nodes: individual distributed effort.

I still have one with 1and1[1], but the contract will expire soon. The disk is too small to run it without enable pruning. The new one[2] just synced yesterday (stats page isnt done yet) and is with netcup.de. I went for a mechanical disk to have some more room for the blockchain.

[1] http://213.165.91.169/
[2] http://188.68.53.44/

unamis76

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 1012

Quote from: shorena on March 16, 2016, 04:16:35 PM

Quote from: unamis76 on March 16, 2016, 04:08:53 PM

-snip-
Suggestion box is open in order to avoid fake nodes

I wish I had a solution, but for now Im fine paying 100 EUR a year to run a full node.

Slightly bit offtopic, but can you disclose what host do you have your node in?

I'm also fine with having VPS acting as nodes, and that's my way to contribute instead of directly donating to nodes. And I guess that's the key to have many nodes: individual distributed effort.

shorena

copper member

Activity: 1498

Merit: 1528

No I dont escrow anymore.

Quote from: odolvlobo on March 16, 2016, 04:16:49 PM

A low number of full nodes is not much of an issue for those people that run full nodes because by running a full node, they know that their transactions are secure. It is however an issue for those people not running a full node because they have no way verify transactions.

In short, there is no reason to pay full nodes because they already get a benefit from being a full node.

Furthermore, it is possible for full nodes to charge non-full nodes for access to their block chain. That would be a better system than being paid out of the block reward.

Quote from: shorena on March 16, 2016, 03:22:44 PM

The question is how do you distinguish a full node from a fake full node.

You can always determine if a node is a full node by quizzing it about transactions in the block chain.

Whats keeping the node from relaying the request to another node and passing the answer to you? At the very least one could make a single node look like 1000.

Topic: Paying full nodes , impossible at this point ? (Read 1143 times)