Perfect example of why governments must hold Bitcoin - page 2.

breathlessz

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Quote from: RokokGudangGaram on February 02, 2019, 06:45:47 AM

Quote from: shesheboy on February 01, 2019, 10:22:17 PM

Quote from: fauzan Ichsan on February 01, 2019, 09:32:32 AM

Quote from: FlightyPouch on February 01, 2019, 09:26:58 AM

Quote from: Menawi12 on February 01, 2019, 08:08:17 AM

If government speculate holding bitcoin rather than gold, i think its very risky because bitcoin not regulated yet. Many country not recognized bitcoin and bitcoin market cap value still low compare government budget.

Well, I think the reason is that Bitcoin is so volatile and it is decentralized the reason they will not be holding it. Unlike gold, it is stable and been there for a lot of years now. Gold will never easily be forgotten or be replaced by other investments or asset, Gold will be Gold like Bitcoin will be Bitcoin. Even though Bitcoin was not recognized by a lot of countries, banned to be exact, it still has its own great accomplishments and we are all part of that.

I agree. with high volatile, of course, it makes a consideration to hold it, currently it is still difficult to be accepted by many countries, but along with the development of technology, later bitcoin will be like gold of course on the factor of trust

many countries are now joining the crypto business . volatility isnt a big thing because it does also help them to earn and buy coins .

btc is already mature in terms of development and it will never be the same as gold because gold is kinda old or ancient in other words though when it comes to trust yeah , sooner or later people of all ages will starting to recognized and adapt crypto just like what they already did with gold .

absolutely right and the more countries that adopt bitcoin, the faster bitcoin will grow and experience price increases, of course, because if the government wants to adopt bitcoin or other crypto it will have a positive impact on bitcoin and other coins

we can see that currently more and more countries are regulating bitcoin, so that this will have a positive impact on BTTC. therefore we do not need to worry about the current conditions

cellard

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Quote from: deisik on February 02, 2019, 06:11:52 AM

Quote from: cellard on February 02, 2019, 12:05:54 AM

Quote from: deisik on February 01, 2019, 04:21:41 AM

That goes without saying

But if we go along with your thought a little further, it is not so much about money at all (though money in whatever form without doubt plays an important role here) as it is about making allies which you can ask for help in situations like this. With that said, I don't think you can trust anyone in such matters (financial ones) as it is lonely at the top while betrayal is only a matter of time when big money is involved

Which is exactly why Bitcoin beats gold and anything else. If you planned ahead and moved your gold reserves into a so called friendly country like Russia, you would still need to trust all the infrastructure that hosts your gold there which is a lot of people

But that's not my point

Indeed, you cannot trust gold for the reasons stated, but I don't think you can trust Bitcoin a lot more than that, either. To be 100% betrayal-proof, you should do everything by yourself. I don't think this is the case with Maduro as otherwise he wouldn't be in a situation like the one he is currently in). So he has to trust someone, and that is where there is not much difference between gold and Bitcoin as the flip side of trust is betrayal, as per definition. When money is involved and big money at that, you can't trust anyone, even your closest relatives like spouses, children, etc

That's why it is so lonely at the top (see Bezos case)

I understand what you mean, but any big infrastructure, like a government, is going to need some delegated tasks, and some backups. If you are the president, or the boss of a big deal with many people involved, you need allies.

The difference between hosting gold reserves overseas in a different jurisdiction vs appointing some high trusted, very select set of people to host Bitcoin backups, I think lowers risk of betrayal by several orders of magnitude.

As I said before, Maduro would have reduced risk to a few people vs trusting an entire overseas jurisdiction, bank and whatnot. There's no such thing as perfect security, it's all about getting the best that you can get.

RokokGudangGaram

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Quote from: shesheboy on February 01, 2019, 10:22:17 PM

Quote from: fauzan Ichsan on February 01, 2019, 09:32:32 AM

Quote from: FlightyPouch on February 01, 2019, 09:26:58 AM

Quote from: Menawi12 on February 01, 2019, 08:08:17 AM

If government speculate holding bitcoin rather than gold, i think its very risky because bitcoin not regulated yet. Many country not recognized bitcoin and bitcoin market cap value still low compare government budget.

Well, I think the reason is that Bitcoin is so volatile and it is decentralized the reason they will not be holding it. Unlike gold, it is stable and been there for a lot of years now. Gold will never easily be forgotten or be replaced by other investments or asset, Gold will be Gold like Bitcoin will be Bitcoin. Even though Bitcoin was not recognized by a lot of countries, banned to be exact, it still has its own great accomplishments and we are all part of that.

I agree. with high volatile, of course, it makes a consideration to hold it, currently it is still difficult to be accepted by many countries, but along with the development of technology, later bitcoin will be like gold of course on the factor of trust

many countries are now joining the crypto business . volatility isnt a big thing because it does also help them to earn and buy coins .

btc is already mature in terms of development and it will never be the same as gold because gold is kinda old or ancient in other words though when it comes to trust yeah , sooner or later people of all ages will starting to recognized and adapt crypto just like what they already did with gold .

absolutely right and the more countries that adopt bitcoin, the faster bitcoin will grow and experience price increases, of course, because if the government wants to adopt bitcoin or other crypto it will have a positive impact on bitcoin and other coins

deisik

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Quote from: cellard on February 02, 2019, 12:05:54 AM

Quote from: deisik on February 01, 2019, 04:21:41 AM

That goes without saying

But if we go along with your thought a little further, it is not so much about money at all (though money in whatever form without doubt plays an important role here) as it is about making allies which you can ask for help in situations like this. With that said, I don't think you can trust anyone in such matters (financial ones) as it is lonely at the top while betrayal is only a matter of time when big money is involved

Which is exactly why Bitcoin beats gold and anything else. If you planned ahead and moved your gold reserves into a so called friendly country like Russia, you would still need to trust all the infrastructure that hosts your gold there which is a lot of people

But that's not my point

Indeed, you cannot trust gold for the reasons stated, but I don't think you can trust Bitcoin a lot more than that, either. To be 100% betrayal-proof, you should do everything by yourself. I don't think this is the case with Maduro as otherwise he wouldn't be in a situation like the one he is currently in). So he has to trust someone, and that is where there is not much difference between gold and Bitcoin as the flip side of trust is betrayal, as per definition. When money is involved and big money at that, you can't trust anyone, even your closest relatives like spouses, children, etc

That's why it is so lonely at the top (see Bezos case)

Burogh

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If government keep bitcoin as their reserve, i think it will great for bitcoin price and market cap value will reach trillion dollar. But its hard to replace dollar because US domination in world economy. If government want to try replace dollar as reserve, US government will give sanction

Caladonian

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Quote from: shesheboy on February 01, 2019, 10:22:17 PM

Quote from: fauzan Ichsan on February 01, 2019, 09:32:32 AM

Quote from: FlightyPouch on February 01, 2019, 09:26:58 AM

Quote from: Menawi12 on February 01, 2019, 08:08:17 AM

If government speculate holding bitcoin rather than gold, i think its very risky because bitcoin not regulated yet. Many country not recognized bitcoin and bitcoin market cap value still low compare government budget.

Well, I think the reason is that Bitcoin is so volatile and it is decentralized the reason they will not be holding it. Unlike gold, it is stable and been there for a lot of years now. Gold will never easily be forgotten or be replaced by other investments or asset, Gold will be Gold like Bitcoin will be Bitcoin. Even though Bitcoin was not recognized by a lot of countries, banned to be exact, it still has its own great accomplishments and we are all part of that.

I agree. with high volatile, of course, it makes a consideration to hold it, currently it is still difficult to be accepted by many countries, but along with the development of technology, later bitcoin will be like gold of course on the factor of trust

many countries are now joining the crypto business . volatility isnt a big thing because it does also help them to earn and buy coins .

btc is already mature in terms of development and it will never be the same as gold because gold is kinda old or ancient in other words though when it comes to trust yeah , sooner or later people of all ages will starting to recognized and adapt crypto just like what they already did with gold .

That's the point, sooner or later as we are now in a digital era where innovations are easily been adopted, the maturity of this industry already being tested by time and as we are proceeding positively more and more people will start gathering interest and begin to use the chain.

With OP's point of view, it's so simple for a person who understand well how things works inside this market, considering those possible hassles and delays, Bitcoin really works as an alternative, an assets that can easily being transferred whenever you like it.

cellard

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Quote from: deisik on February 01, 2019, 04:21:41 AM

Quote from: cellard on January 31, 2019, 11:03:12 PM

Quote from: deisik on January 31, 2019, 02:32:16 AM

Quote from: cellard on January 30, 2019, 11:19:38 PM

Quote from: kolesozw on January 28, 2019, 12:23:15 AM

EU and UK are toothless loyal US dogs. They doesn't have own decision making process now. The point here isn't is Maduro good or bad, but the point is they are breaking all democratic principles.

Having Bitcoin will not help Maduro anyway. He will need to convert to fiat at some point. And all cryptos are what 120B? This is nothing compared to world finances and needs.

Not really an argument. Appealing to low liquidity just proves that Bitcoin is still tiny and thus potential for growth huge. If you look a the fundamental analysis, it still applies: If Maduro had Bitcoin reserves instead of gold reserves, it would be better than 0, which is what he is going to get as soon as US gets a foot inside Venezuela

Agree, that's a shaky argument

But before "appealing to low liquidity" counterargument, we should ask why would this villain want to cash out everything? Cashing out so much would definitely raise a lot of red flags as to the source of all this wealth. And Maduro may end up losing his bitcoins just as easily as he has already lost the "Aztec gold". In this manner, if we assume he was prudent enough to exchange the gold for crypto, we should as well assume that he wouldn't be that stupid to try selling all his bitcoins at once

The main point is to plan ahead before the attackers enter your borders looking for your stuff

That goes without saying

But if we go along with your thought a little further, it is not so much about money at all (though money in whatever form without doubt plays an important role here) as it is about making allies which you can ask for help in situations like this. With that said, I don't think you can trust anyone in such matters (financial ones) as it is lonely at the top while betrayal is only a matter of time when big money is involved

Which is exactly why Bitcoin beats gold and anything else. If you planned ahead and moved your gold reserves into a so called friendly country like Russia, you would still need to trust all the infrastructure that hosts your gold there which is a lot of people.

If you had Bitcoin, you can just trust a very select circle of people without the need of some huge circus to guard the stuff. Moving tones of shinny rock vs private keys. This is why the goldubs that criticize Bitcoin for not being a tangible good they can hold is a self-defeating argument.

shesheboy

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Quote from: fauzan Ichsan on February 01, 2019, 09:32:32 AM

Quote from: FlightyPouch on February 01, 2019, 09:26:58 AM

Quote from: Menawi12 on February 01, 2019, 08:08:17 AM

If government speculate holding bitcoin rather than gold, i think its very risky because bitcoin not regulated yet. Many country not recognized bitcoin and bitcoin market cap value still low compare government budget.

Well, I think the reason is that Bitcoin is so volatile and it is decentralized the reason they will not be holding it. Unlike gold, it is stable and been there for a lot of years now. Gold will never easily be forgotten or be replaced by other investments or asset, Gold will be Gold like Bitcoin will be Bitcoin. Even though Bitcoin was not recognized by a lot of countries, banned to be exact, it still has its own great accomplishments and we are all part of that.

I agree. with high volatile, of course, it makes a consideration to hold it, currently it is still difficult to be accepted by many countries, but along with the development of technology, later bitcoin will be like gold of course on the factor of trust

many countries are now joining the crypto business . volatility isnt a big thing because it does also help them to earn and buy coins .

btc is already mature in terms of development and it will never be the same as gold because gold is kinda old or ancient in other words though when it comes to trust yeah , sooner or later people of all ages will starting to recognized and adapt crypto just like what they already did with gold .

Lumi3004

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Not all governments and countries think like Maduro, try to imagine if all countries hold Bitcoin, I believe the price of bitcoin for now is not like this, quite the opposite, I see this public news, CNN of course the other side can take the good side about Bitcoin is going forward.

Yamifoud

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Quote from: juragane on February 01, 2019, 08:47:58 PM

Quote from: biskitop on January 27, 2019, 11:48:42 PM

yes, of course if the government switches to menyiman bitcoin and makes safe and good storage, then there will be no more colonization terms. that sounds pretty good, also to avoid inflation.

the government that is always inflation every year may be the best way to start using bitcoin in large-scale trade between countries, one of which is by facilitating traders in their country and the government having or involved in crypto currencies, this can be a country's economic savior, by making it it's easier for entrepreneurs to use government bitcoin to be profitable because it can be separated from inflation, especially to avoid the pressure of major international currencies.

It is the oversee of the governments interest towards crypto and it looks like we've through on it, only some of them just hide their btc's just to wait for the timing. Probably they took advantage of being on the stage of crisis, buying bitcoins at cheap price and make reserve in the future used.
We are headed for bringing up crypto into acceptable coins and exactly people were enjoyed using by then.

juragane

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Quote from: biskitop on January 27, 2019, 11:48:42 PM

yes, of course if the government switches to menyiman bitcoin and makes safe and good storage, then there will be no more colonization terms. that sounds pretty good, also to avoid inflation.

the government that is always inflation every year may be the best way to start using bitcoin in large-scale trade between countries, one of which is by facilitating traders in their country and the government having or involved in crypto currencies, this can be a country's economic savior, by making it it's easier for entrepreneurs to use government bitcoin to be profitable because it can be separated from inflation, especially to avoid the pressure of major international currencies.

magneto

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Quote from: cellard on January 27, 2019, 10:59:10 PM

If Maduro was holding Bitcoin instead of gold, specially gold outside of your borders, he wouldn't have had that little problem. Of course Maduro is probably too computer illiterate to get the thing done.

You could make the argument of "if he was holding his gold inside his country he wouldn't have been denied access". Well still, it would make sense to hold Bitcoin and not gold, specially when you have an empire like US always threatening anyone with entering your country and taking all of your gold and oil reserves as they will do with Venezuela. With Bitcoin they couldn't be able to take them as you could have safe backups overseas.

This is an unbeatable logical argument for the bullish case of institutions holding Bitcoin. Im not saying they should dump all of their gold, but definitely dump a certain % and diversify with Bitcoin. This will happen sooner or later, and it just takes a first mover for the rest to follow, they will not be able to afford not having some due game theory, similar to not having powder back in the way when when wars were fought with swords.

To be fair, he probably already does. The fact that he has shown interest in cryptocurrencies (even though the Petro is essentially renowned as a scam at this stage) means that he likely has some BTC in reserves.

But I think that your point still stands. Firstly, bitcoin can be transacted with much easier compared to gold. Especially with moving large amounts of it. The liquidity that is within the bitcoin market is probably no less than the physical gold market, either. Governments who hold bitcoin instead of gold also won't have issues with storage, and in this case, being blocked from accessing the gold since bitcoin is trustless.

Perhaps governments and central banks are still concerned about the volatility of bitcoin compared to gold, which is a valid concern given that they may need the assets to perform monetary policy at any given time. But I still think that in a few years, more countries will hold bitcoin because of the increased liquidity given by institutional investors and the increased stability as the market matures. But that's not to say gold isn't a good store of value, it still is, and it will continue to be. But custodial concerns are present with it, no doubt.

deisik

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Quote from: markj113 on February 01, 2019, 08:50:46 AM

Quote from: kolesozw on January 28, 2019, 12:23:15 AM

EU and UK are toothless loyal US dogs. They doesn't have own decision making process now. The point here isn't is Maduro good or bad, but the point is they are breaking all democratic principles.

Having Bitcoin will not help Maduro anyway. He will need to convert to fiat at some point. And all cryptos are what 120B? This is nothing compared to world finances and needs.

Well the UK and EU just buttfucked the US by launching a SWIFT payment alternative to continue trade with Iran.

The EU is pushing an EU army to render the US redundant

Actually, it makes perfect sense

Partnership with Iran despite all US sanctions, Brexit (with Britain always being the closest ally of the US), pan-European army - all of this points to the fact that we are on the verge of the EU being transformed into the Fourth Reich, if not already (with Angela Merkel as a new fuhrer). Let's remember that the prewar Iran (I refer to WWII here) had been actively collaborating with Nazi Germany, and now things start to look suspiciously similar or even familiar (at least to those who kinda been there). Everything might have turned quite differently in WWII if Iran and its oilfields hadn't been preemptively taken over by the Soviets and British in 1941

Crypdon

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Other dictators around the world will look at that and start dumping their assets for bitcoin instead. This could cause a domino effect where bitcoin is the safe haven for all corrupt officials and a new pump begins

fauzan Ichsan

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Quote from: FlightyPouch on February 01, 2019, 09:26:58 AM

Quote from: Menawi12 on February 01, 2019, 08:08:17 AM

If government speculate holding bitcoin rather than gold, i think its very risky because bitcoin not regulated yet. Many country not recognized bitcoin and bitcoin market cap value still low compare government budget.

Well, I think the reason is that Bitcoin is so volatile and it is decentralized the reason they will not be holding it. Unlike gold, it is stable and been there for a lot of years now. Gold will never easily be forgotten or be replaced by other investments or asset, Gold will be Gold like Bitcoin will be Bitcoin. Even though Bitcoin was not recognized by a lot of countries, banned to be exact, it still has its own great accomplishments and we are all part of that.

I agree. with high volatile, of course, it makes a consideration to hold it, currently it is still difficult to be accepted by many countries, but along with the development of technology, later bitcoin will be like gold of course on the factor of trust

FlightyPouch

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Quote from: Menawi12 on February 01, 2019, 08:08:17 AM

If government speculate holding bitcoin rather than gold, i think its very risky because bitcoin not regulated yet. Many country not recognized bitcoin and bitcoin market cap value still low compare government budget.

Well, I think the reason is that Bitcoin is so volatile and it is decentralized the reason they will not be holding it. Unlike gold, it is stable and been there for a lot of years now. Gold will never easily be forgotten or be replaced by other investments or asset, Gold will be Gold like Bitcoin will be Bitcoin. Even though Bitcoin was not recognized by a lot of countries, banned to be exact, it still has its own great accomplishments and we are all part of that.

markj113

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Quote from: kolesozw on January 28, 2019, 12:23:15 AM

EU and UK are toothless loyal US dogs. They doesn't have own decision making process now. The point here isn't is Maduro good or bad, but the point is they are breaking all democratic principles.

Having Bitcoin will not help Maduro anyway. He will need to convert to fiat at some point. And all cryptos are what 120B? This is nothing compared to world finances and needs.

Well the UK and EU just buttfucked the US by launching a SWIFT payment alternative to continue trade with Iran.

The EU is pushing an EU army to render the US redundant.

What you are currently witnessing is the beginning of the end of the US with $ the world reserve currency and their role as "world police"

Menawi12

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If government speculate holding bitcoin rather than gold, i think its very risky because bitcoin not regulated yet. Many country not recognized bitcoin and bitcoin market cap value still low compare government budget.

deisik

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Quote from: cellard on January 31, 2019, 11:03:12 PM

Quote from: deisik on January 31, 2019, 02:32:16 AM

Quote from: cellard on January 30, 2019, 11:19:38 PM

Quote from: kolesozw on January 28, 2019, 12:23:15 AM

EU and UK are toothless loyal US dogs. They doesn't have own decision making process now. The point here isn't is Maduro good or bad, but the point is they are breaking all democratic principles.

Having Bitcoin will not help Maduro anyway. He will need to convert to fiat at some point. And all cryptos are what 120B? This is nothing compared to world finances and needs.

Not really an argument. Appealing to low liquidity just proves that Bitcoin is still tiny and thus potential for growth huge. If you look a the fundamental analysis, it still applies: If Maduro had Bitcoin reserves instead of gold reserves, it would be better than 0, which is what he is going to get as soon as US gets a foot inside Venezuela

Agree, that's a shaky argument

But before "appealing to low liquidity" counterargument, we should ask why would this villain want to cash out everything? Cashing out so much would definitely raise a lot of red flags as to the source of all this wealth. And Maduro may end up losing his bitcoins just as easily as he has already lost the "Aztec gold". In this manner, if we assume he was prudent enough to exchange the gold for crypto, we should as well assume that he wouldn't be that stupid to try selling all his bitcoins at once

The main point is to plan ahead before the attackers enter your borders looking for your stuff

That goes without saying

But if we go along with your thought a little further, it is not so much about money at all (though money in whatever form without doubt plays an important role here) as it is about making allies which you can ask for help in situations like this. With that said, I don't think you can trust anyone in such matters (financial ones) as it is lonely at the top while betrayal is only a matter of time when big money is involved

cellard

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Quote from: deisik on January 31, 2019, 02:32:16 AM

Quote from: cellard on January 30, 2019, 11:19:38 PM

Quote from: kolesozw on January 28, 2019, 12:23:15 AM

EU and UK are toothless loyal US dogs. They doesn't have own decision making process now. The point here isn't is Maduro good or bad, but the point is they are breaking all democratic principles.

Having Bitcoin will not help Maduro anyway. He will need to convert to fiat at some point. And all cryptos are what 120B? This is nothing compared to world finances and needs.

Not really an argument. Appealing to low liquidity just proves that Bitcoin is still tiny and thus potential for growth huge. If you look a the fundamental analysis, it still applies: If Maduro had Bitcoin reserves instead of gold reserves, it would be better than 0, which is what he is going to get as soon as US gets a foot inside Venezuela

Agree, that's a shaky argument

But before "appealing to low liquidity" counterargument, we should ask why would this villain want to cash out everything? Cashing out so much would definitely raise a lot of red flags as to the source of all this wealth. And Maduro may end up losing his bitcoins just as easily as he has already lost the "Aztec gold". In this manner, if we assume he was prudent enough to exchange the gold for crypto, we should as well assume that he wouldn't be that stupid to try selling all his bitcoins at once

The main point is to plan ahead before the attackers enter your borders looking for your stuff. So if Maduro wanted to do it right he would already hold all of his coins. He would also appoint someone he could trust to have a backup overseas. Typically countries position themselves depending if they are from the western axis or the euro-asian axis. So then this appointed person would move to whatever country is officially supporting Venezuela, like Russia. At this point his wealth would be sitting within safe borders and he would be free to sell or not to sell his bitcoins.

For this reason bitcoin beats gold and therefore is undervalued by the $trillions.

Topic: Perfect example of why governments must hold Bitcoin - page 2. (Read 21532 times)