Ok, I get it: most people want to keep Digital Goods and the moderators don't want to take actions against bad actors.
Keep in mind that using escrow won't protect you from getting licenses revoked or gift cards reversed - I hate to say that, but I suggest using reversible payment options for purchases in this section (the trust system would be a nice thing if it was reliable)
I'm locking this topic now - stay safe if you're planning to trade Digital Goods.
Topic: Please remove the Digital Goods section (Read 2415 times)
The section needs to be cleaned up thats for sure. If an extra mod is needed just for that section let it happen. What is legal and illegal is debatable. For example using someone's netflix account to watch shows is debatable but using up some one's dunkin donuts virtual balance is illegal since its stealing their money and hurts them compared to piggybacking someones netflix where they can still use the service.
The politic of this staff (as I have read in the past): is to not moderate the scam or scam attempt because everyone of us should trade with his own diligence (and obviously use always an escrow). Remove that section (as I said previously) will not resolve the problem, and an extra mod will not also resolve the problem.
The section needs to be cleaned up thats for sure. If an extra mod is needed just for that section let it happen. What is legal and illegal is debatable. For example using someone's netflix account to watch shows is debatable but using up some one's dunkin donuts virtual balance is illegal since its stealing their money and hurts them compared to piggybacking someones netflix where they can still use the service.
+ If you can prove they sell illegal goods in all jurisdictions
It is illegal in several jurisdictions. Even having sex with children recording it and selling the video would be legal in some countries....
Which law will refer to this board?
This is international forum porn is fine in some countries.
The forum forbids a deal if it's illegal in either the buyer's or the seller's country. So I understand you can't publish something that is illegal in your country and you can't make an offer for something that is illegal in your country. However that's hard to enforce because people are not required to disclose their country (and we know little about other countries law). Probably the community should decide some more specific rules (which could be handled by a poll) for common cases that varies per country such as copyrighted goods, porn and so on.
Yes I think so.
I think digital shouldn't removen but we must make the rules to control illegal contents.
I don't think the digital goods section should be removed, nor do I think it is filled with illegal offers.
First of all the laws that are allegedly broken when selling pirated software are IP laws which are generally not viewed as "just" and will not try to proactively enforce them.
Looking at the first 4 pages (158 threads) in the digital goods section, I found the following:
-9 threads that are selling accounts (e.g. netflix, HBOGo, etc.) that are priced at levels that they are likely stolen
-9 threads that are selling gift cards at a large enough of a discount that I can use common sense to say they were probably originally obtained illegitimately
-14 threads that are either selling MSDN related keys or apparently similarly obtained keys (note this is disputed by many, including me, that this is actually against the law)
-2 threads denoting that threads were moved to another section to account for why I only counted 158 threads above
This works out to roughly 20% of the threads on the first four pages that are selling potentially illegally obtained items, however that percentage drops to roughly 11% if you don't believe selling MSDN (and similar) keys is illegal.
Please note that the threads I counted are only apparently "illegal" and I have not actually found actual evidence that laws have been broken, I need to make certain assumptions to come to the conclusion that laws were broken. I also think it is fair to say that some small percentage of items being sold that are "tagged" as potentially illegally obtained are likely legitimately obtained but their seller is simply trying to get rid of them quickly.
First of all the laws that are allegedly broken when selling pirated software are IP laws which are generally not viewed as "just" and will not try to proactively enforce them.
Looking at the first 4 pages (158 threads) in the digital goods section, I found the following:
-9 threads that are selling accounts (e.g. netflix, HBOGo, etc.) that are priced at levels that they are likely stolen
-9 threads that are selling gift cards at a large enough of a discount that I can use common sense to say they were probably originally obtained illegitimately
-14 threads that are either selling MSDN related keys or apparently similarly obtained keys (note this is disputed by many, including me, that this is actually against the law)
-2 threads denoting that threads were moved to another section to account for why I only counted 158 threads above
This works out to roughly 20% of the threads on the first four pages that are selling potentially illegally obtained items, however that percentage drops to roughly 11% if you don't believe selling MSDN (and similar) keys is illegal.
Please note that the threads I counted are only apparently "illegal" and I have not actually found actual evidence that laws have been broken, I need to make certain assumptions to come to the conclusion that laws were broken. I also think it is fair to say that some small percentage of items being sold that are "tagged" as potentially illegally obtained are likely legitimately obtained but their seller is simply trying to get rid of them quickly.
Please keep this section - whenever I have the urge to watch professional porn instead of paying $19.95 for a month subscription, I pay someone $2 for an account from here! Once I finish my business and everything, either way I feel quite mad about how I wasted that money. I'd rather it be $2 then $20 so please keep digital good section.
Thank you. THXS. Merci. Danke. Grazie. 謝謝. блaгoдapя.
Thank you. THXS. Merci. Danke. Grazie. 謝謝. блaгoдapя.
+ If you can prove they sell illegal goods in all jurisdictions
It is illegal in several jurisdictions. Even having sex with children recording it and selling the video would be legal in some countries....
Which law will refer to this board?
This is international forum porn is fine in some countries.
The forum forbids a deal if it's illegal in either the buyer's or the seller's country. So I understand you can't publish something that is illegal in your country and you can't make an offer for something that is illegal in your country. However that's hard to enforce because people are not required to disclose their country (and we know little about other countries law). Probably the community should decide some more specific rules (which could be handled by a poll) for common cases that varies per country such as copyrighted goods, porn and so on.
+ If you can prove they sell illegal goods in all jurisdictions
It is illegal in several jurisdictions. Even having sex with children recording it and selling the video would be legal in some countries....
Which law will refer to this board?
This is international forum porn is fine in some countries.
Removing the section completely makes no sense whatsoever.
Use your head when buying things. If you can't handle that section don't go there.
Use your head when buying things. If you can't handle that section don't go there.
+ If you can prove they sell illegal goods in all jurisdictions
It is illegal in several jurisdictions. Even having sex with children recording it and selling the video would be legal in some countries....
Are you really comparing people knowingly selling illegal goods to accidents in traffic? If 1 million people sold stolen cars in Turkey should that be tolerated?
+ If you can prove they sell illegal goods in all jurisdictions, then moderators will remove it. Just because you don't like a digital good or it's illegal in your jurisdiction doesn't mean it's illegal in everywhere. Rules are clear.
Fun fact*: People sell stolen cars in Syria, they steal it from Turkey and sell them back to real owners. That's tolerated by our government. Laws are f*cked up.
*1 http://www.ahaber.com.tr/webtv/turkiye/suriyede-calinti-oto-pazari
*2 http://www.aljazeera.com.tr/al-jazeera-ozel/kiralik-araclar-suriyeye-kaciriliyor
*3 http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/ekonomi/25425166.asp
Every year* only in Turkey there are more than 1 million accidents in traffic. Let's ban (remove) all cars from traffic then.
Are you really comparing people knowingly selling illegal goods to accidents in traffic? If 1 million people sold stolen cars in Turkey should that be tolerated?
I'm saying it's the same logic. There are accidents, ban cars. There are illegal goods, remove whole marketplace.
It's like censoring internet in Turkey only for Turkish users when a social media site don't remove a content that government don't want us to see. But everybody use VPN and see it anyway. It's absurd, outdated, anti-libertarian. This offer is against BitcoinTalk's policy.
This is best place to find some digital goods including illegal but I'm always find Stream game keys scripts and premium account.
Every year* only in Turkey there are more than 1 million accidents in traffic. Let's ban (remove) all cars from traffic then.
Are you really comparing people knowingly selling illegal goods to accidents in traffic? If 1 million people sold stolen cars in Turkey should that be tolerated?
I've sold some goods there and if it was removed people like me would not have a place for those kind of transactions. Enforcing rules wont do anything since we dont have that many moderators to have them checkout every thread, my recommendation would be to actually divide the sections on legitimate goods and the other one, people would buy how they want and if someone is found to be posting in the wrong section then consequences should follow.
Every year* only in Turkey there are more than 1 million accidents in traffic. Let's ban (remove) all cars from traffic then. Your offer is absurd.
Digital Goods section is very useful if you know how to use that board. There are a lot of legit sellers and that board bring more activity for Bitcoin related market transactions. I would say it is the biggest and best board for Bitcoin ecosystem and should be expanded (more sub forums), not removed.
Digital Goods section is very useful if you know how to use that board. There are a lot of legit sellers and that board bring more activity for Bitcoin related market transactions. I would say it is the biggest and best board for Bitcoin ecosystem and should be expanded (more sub forums), not removed.
Most offers in Digital Goods are related to cracked user accounts and illegally obtained software keys.
IMO, a good portion of the Digital Goods forum supports theft as long as it benefits bitcoin. I got ripped a new one when I pointed out obvious theft.
I want to say that removing Digital Good is not going to resolve anything and it is just sweeping problem under the rug.
Privacy is key for bitcoin so disclosing stuff should not be mandatory ESPECIALLY address and phone number since that can lead to a lot more serious bad things. This is a forum not a bank with bank security so leaving very private information like that on a
Your experience with Bitcoin is going to be more disappointing if you're sending money that can't be claimed back to people you don't know. Privacy for buyers works in most cases unless you're trading BTC.
Privacy is key for bitcoin so disclosing stuff should not be mandatory ESPECIALLY address and phone number since that can lead to a lot more serious bad things. This is a forum not a bank with bank security so leaving very private information like that on a forum that can be hacked is a definite no. Cleaning up the digital goods forum is a good idea however defining what is "bad" is very subjective. Also what proof can you provide on what is legit vs not. For example someone selling an amazon gift card for 10-15% off. Seems reasonable and it could be legit or a carded gift card or hacked/cracked. I would say start by removing things that you can tell are 100% wrong such as people selling combos, users dunkin n donuts accounts with balances on them (clearly cracked), PSN accounts with wallet balances on them, etc. Essentially anything that involves an account with a virtual balance that is being advertised. Gray area items such as gift cards should be left since they can be legit and leave it up to the professional judgment of the buyers to decide.
And also, how do we know things they provide are legit? How can we know that staffs aren't whitelisting their acquaintances? How can we know the staff itself is selling such keys? etc...
How about only allowing software sales for people who are wiling to disclose their full name, address and phone number - so if it's not legit you can report them to the police.
That would definitely make this much more than a forum. It'd be like a complete marketplace, which would be nice but I don't think all the required systems to verify and control could be implemented and managed (besides the privacy issues as pointed out by abyrnes). I also like crazyearner's idea but I don't think mods could do all that work either.
Being practical I really think a better organization of that board (creating sub-forums) and a more strict set of rules would help. Then we all could report those not following the rules.
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