Poloniex declaring bankruptcy.
What's wrong with that? It would still be better than keeping the business running as usual as it is. At last, the world would be sure this won't happen again.
Topic: Poloniex's taking money from its customers to cover its loss - page 6. (Read 2575 times)
What's wrong with that? It would still be better than keeping the business running as usual as it is. At last, the world would be sure this won't happen again.
There is language in their TOS that I believe relives Poloniex from legal responsibility from covering the losses.
terms are not enforceable in court where they contradict the law. so the question of jurisdiction is crucial here. like countryfree said, haircutting balances with a generalized loss is 100% illegal in the USA, where poloniex is organized. but IANAL and i dunno if they've dodged a bullet by restricting USA customers from this market. if so, what laws apply here? EU? various local laws where lenders reside?
i wouldn't be surprised if the EU offered similar protections to the USA but i have no idea where to start researching the law.
I would also point out that I do not know if Poloniex has shareholder equity equal to or greater than the amount of the loan losses. If equity is less than the amount of the loan losses, suing Poloniex may only result in you paying a lot of money in attorney fees, and Poloniex declaring bankruptcy.
There is language in their TOS that I believe relives Poloniex from legal responsibility from covering the losses.
terms are not enforceable in court where they contradict the law. so the question of jurisdiction is crucial here. like countryfree said, haircutting balances with a generalized loss is 100% illegal in the USA, where poloniex is organized. but IANAL and i dunno if they've dodged a bullet by restricting USA customers from this market. if so, what laws apply here? EU? various local laws where lenders reside?
i wouldn't be surprised if the EU offered similar protections to the USA but i have no idea where to start researching the law.
Yes, the case is difficult. What Poloniex has done is illegal in the US, but the exchange says we can do it because we're not offering this service to US citizens. It's a bit like saying drugs are illegal, but there would be nothing wrong selling drugs to a Chinese tourist...
There's also lots of regulation for consumer and investor protection in the EU, but they would not apply to investments outside the EU.
Poloniex is based in Boston, so justice has to be there.
There is language in their TOS that I believe relives Poloniex from legal responsibility from covering the losses.
terms are not enforceable in court where they contradict the law. so the question of jurisdiction is crucial here. like countryfree said, haircutting balances with a generalized loss is 100% illegal in the USA, where poloniex is organized. but IANAL and i dunno if they've dodged a bullet by restricting USA customers from this market. if so, what laws apply here? EU? various local laws where lenders reside?
i wouldn't be surprised if the EU offered similar protections to the USA but i have no idea where to start researching the law.
they should at least establish some sort of payment plan out of their profits like bitfinex did after they were hacked.
I don't think poloniex plans on using money from their profits to repay lenders. I believe their intention to solely use coins recovered from defaulted borrowers. At least this is my understandingThat is my understanding as well, and that's what's stated on their announcement since the beginning. They've shown no intentions to make amends.
I personally think that they should at least take some responsibility over this ordeal. They were stupid enough to let the CLAM/BTC pair to be traded on margin despite knowing full well that the liquidity of clams were extremely low, as I've stated before. They even acknowledged this themselves. If you acknowledge that, then why aren't you taking responsibility?
I was not personally affected, and I cannot lend on Poloniex, but this situation makes me to want to not use Poloniex in the future.
I see rates are down to 2% apr again. I guess lenders there are just gluttons for punishment? 
I checked coinlend.org and I see around 3.1% p.a. compared to 2.1% on bitfinex and 1.1% on quoine. Maybe there are enough people not paying close attention to bid down the interest rates this low. I think at a minimum, lenders would need an 8% pa premium over competitors to make the risk worth it.
Now getting legal advice, I've been told that proving there was a fraud would be very difficult, unless having access to Poloniex's whole data, but there was definitely a mistake. Things like this, that CLAM crash because of crazy margin trading, should never happen.
I wouldn't think fraud would be the angle here. Something like negligence with regard to capital and margin requirements, maybe.
Does anyone know what jurisdiction this case would fall under? Did the lawyer you spoke to say? As a US company, capital and margin requirements would normally be covered by CFTC regulations. Since US persons aren't allowed to lend or margin trade on Poloniex, I'm not sure they apply here.
Yes, negligence, but there's also the fact that socializing losses is illegal in the US. Poloniex says it's OK because it wasn't offering its services to US customers... Easy answer!
I see rates are down to 2% apr again. I guess lenders there are just gluttons for punishment?
Yes, very stupid. Now that we know that lending is unsafe at Poloniex, doing it to earn a measly 2% is plain stupid.
I see rates are down to 2% apr again. I guess lenders there are just gluttons for punishment?
Now getting legal advice, I've been told that proving there was a fraud would be very difficult, unless having access to Poloniex's whole data, but there was definitely a mistake. Things like this, that CLAM crash because of crazy margin trading, should never happen.
I wouldn't think fraud would be the angle here. Something like negligence with regard to capital and margin requirements, maybe.
Does anyone know what jurisdiction this case would fall under? Did the lawyer you spoke to say? As a US company, capital and margin requirements would normally be covered by CFTC regulations. Since US persons aren't allowed to lend or margin trade on Poloniex, I'm not sure they apply here.
Yeah, sure! It's the group from the lending bot Coinlend; it's an open group and the link is the following: https://t.me/CoinlendOfficial
Thanks for info, but actually, I won't join that group. It's quite possible it was a bot which made the CLAM sh*tcoin crash. I don't trust bots, Poloniex should not allow them...
Polo victims telegram group https://t.me/joinchat/Dn0zBRZOyaYnp6O8oDsLAw
Thanks a lot, I've just joined that group. We shall be all individual private investors there.
Polo victims telegram group https://t.me/joinchat/Dn0zBRZOyaYnp6O8oDsLAw
I've found a willing lawyer if there are people interested, but the status of the case will depend of the number of victims...
have you managed to track down other victims? at 1800 BTC generalized loss (1620 BTC if 10% was refunded) there must be some big lenders affected. i'm surprised at how quiet this story has been.
i'm assuming polo hasn't said a word since they refunded the 10%? they should at least establish some sort of payment plan out of their profits like bitfinex did after they were hacked.
I've found only 3 other people so far! Don't know where to find the other victims... And no news from Poloniex since they gave 10% back. I've asked support about waht's next, but no answer so far...
Now getting legal advice, I've been told that proving there was a fraud would be very difficult, unless having access to Poloniex's whole data, but there was definitely a mistake. Things like this, that CLAM crash because of crazy margin trading, should never happen.
I blame following polo's mistakes in our loses
Intransparency. Poloniex lending market is intransparent compare to bitfinex where you know total and your personal exposure to a collateral asset. Obviously polo have changed their loss management policy after the incident
Lack of risk management procedures on the exchange side. Our funds was the main (and only) driver for the whole pump. Probably pumper(s) had intention to rob us at the very beginning. In this case, polo should seize pumper’s assets and give it to us.
If polo will fail to obtain funds from borrowers/pumper, we should get portion of 15% lending fee until full repayment
Intransparency. Poloniex lending market is intransparent compare to bitfinex where you know total and your personal exposure to a collateral asset. Obviously polo have changed their loss management policy after the incident
Lack of risk management procedures on the exchange side. Our funds was the main (and only) driver for the whole pump. Probably pumper(s) had intention to rob us at the very beginning. In this case, polo should seize pumper’s assets and give it to us.
If polo will fail to obtain funds from borrowers/pumper, we should get portion of 15% lending fee until full repayment
Where did you get this info?
private conversations with strangers from russian telegram polo chat.
they should at least establish some sort of payment plan out of their profits like bitfinex did after they were hacked.
I don't think poloniex plans on using money from their profits to repay lenders. I believe their intention to solely use coins recovered from defaulted borrowers. At least this is my understandingThat is my understanding as well, and that's what's stated on their announcement since the beginning. They've shown no intentions to make amends.
I personally think that they should at least take some responsibility over this ordeal. They were stupid enough to let the CLAM/BTC pair to be traded on margin despite knowing full well that the liquidity of clams were extremely low, as I've stated before. They even acknowledged this themselves. If you acknowledge that, then why aren't you taking responsibility?
i heard some victims were blocked by polo because their over-emotional conversations with support
Where did you get this info? If this is true, then it's unprofessional by Polo. Users will get emotional at times, especially when their money's at stake.
they should at least establish some sort of payment plan out of their profits like bitfinex did after they were hacked.
I don't think poloniex plans on using money from their profits to repay lenders. I believe their intention to solely use coins recovered from defaulted borrowers. At least this is my understanding I've found a willing lawyer if there are people interested, but the status of the case will depend of the number of victims...
have you managed to track down other victims? at 1800 BTC generalized loss (1620 BTC if 10% was refunded) there must be some big lenders affected. i'm surprised at how quiet this story has been.
i'm assuming polo hasn't said a word since they refunded the 10%? they should at least establish some sort of payment plan out of their profits like bitfinex did after they were hacked.
The problem is far from solved, I'm still missing 90% of my money, like all the pople affected I believe.
I'm really sorry to hear that, hope it gets sorted out
I'm not very familiar with Telegram, can you giver the name of that group? Can anyone join, or do you need to be invited?
You may also tell the other guys about this topic, thanks.
You may also tell the other guys about this topic, thanks.
Yeah, sure! It's the group from the lending bot Coinlend; it's an open group and the link is the following: https://t.me/CoinlendOfficial
... but I'm part of a Lending group on telegram and some users have indeed been affected. Every update I've received comes from there, and I've just read this posted today:
From there, I believe the exchange is trying to make ammends, but I'm not sure everyone sees it the same way
Quote
Jun 7
More
CLAM incident update: Make no mistake, we’re committed to making affected lenders whole, come hell or high water. We’re working on meeting this goal, including (but not limited to) recovering what the defaulted borrowers owe lenders. Regardless, losses will be addressed.
More
CLAM incident update: Make no mistake, we’re committed to making affected lenders whole, come hell or high water. We’re working on meeting this goal, including (but not limited to) recovering what the defaulted borrowers owe lenders. Regardless, losses will be addressed.
From there, I believe the exchange is trying to make ammends, but I'm not sure everyone sees it the same way
The problem is far from solved, I'm still missing 90% of my money, like all the pople affected I believe.
I'm not very familiar with Telegram, can you giver the name of that group? Can anyone join, or do you need to be invited?
You may also tell the other guys about this topic, thanks.
Came here thanks to this message.
Now, I was personally not affected by this, but I'm part of a Lending group on telegram and some users have indeed been affected. Every update I've received comes from there, and I've just read this posted today:
From there, I believe the exchange is trying to make ammends, but I'm not sure everyone sees it the same way
Now, I was personally not affected by this, but I'm part of a Lending group on telegram and some users have indeed been affected. Every update I've received comes from there, and I've just read this posted today:
From there, I believe the exchange is trying to make ammends, but I'm not sure everyone sees it the same way
Could you please invite me to the group?
Came here thanks to this message.
Now, I was personally not affected by this, but I'm part of a Lending group on telegram and some users have indeed been affected. Every update I've received comes from there, and I've just read this posted today:
From there, I believe the exchange is trying to make ammends, but I'm not sure everyone sees it the same way
Now, I was personally not affected by this, but I'm part of a Lending group on telegram and some users have indeed been affected. Every update I've received comes from there, and I've just read this posted today:
Quote
Jun 7
More
CLAM incident update: Make no mistake, we’re committed to making affected lenders whole, come hell or high water. We’re working on meeting this goal, including (but not limited to) recovering what the defaulted borrowers owe lenders. Regardless, losses will be addressed.
More
CLAM incident update: Make no mistake, we’re committed to making affected lenders whole, come hell or high water. We’re working on meeting this goal, including (but not limited to) recovering what the defaulted borrowers owe lenders. Regardless, losses will be addressed.
From there, I believe the exchange is trying to make ammends, but I'm not sure everyone sees it the same way
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