Topic: Ponzi "Game" == Negative Trust? - page 3. (Read 8479 times)

I don't think a ponzi can be made provably fair at all. How can you stop the ponzi operator to make a bunch of early deposits in each round?

Exactly this is the point where those in favour of the ponzi usually start to question whether provably fair is fair in the first place instead of confronting the argument. Cant really blame them as its hard to prove you did not do something.

I'm curious how one would go about building a provably fair ponzi. With the majority of the dice sites out there, while you have a net -ve EV at least you can ensure the game is run fairly. With all these ponzis it would seem trivial for the operator to open a round and fund the first block of bets. If the ponzi goes nowhere, no loss to them. If it's a success, they've made a bunch of BTC with no risk to themselves.
It's a little different with these Ponzis than with a dice game, as Stunna could play as many rolls as he wanted to without affecting other players.

I dont like the idea of restricting legitimate newbies just to make them a little saver.



Have you seen any of the more reputable members that argued here for ponzis create one? I would like to see that. Id like to see them prove us all wrong, yet somehow they dont even try, but keep on creating new accounts[2].


[1] http://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/file/archives/pdf/1995_03_Imprimis.pdf
[2] baseless assumption

As I was writing my previous post I was somewhat contemplating offering a bounty to anyone who can find a ponzi site/game that has not scammed (and has at least 50 players and has been around for at least two weeks).

I agree that people should not have their hands held to protect their money, however the fact that they all eventually scam is somewhat of an argument to make somewhat of an exception to this belief.

I would wager my wallet there are none. If it's such a profitable venture for operators through fees and high entertainment value for the gamblers, why have there been no long standing ponzi games? These games aren't a novel concept.

Theymos asked if the people posting and visiting the gambling section are irritated. Yes, we are irritated. The gambling section has BECOME the ponzi section. I can't find any sports picks threads. Casinos and other gambling threads have been pushed back several pages. Any other threads are complaining about ponzis, recruiting for ponzis, or supporting ponzis. It's become complete shit.

Please save our section Theymos/Badbear

Maybe the newbie jail is good only for that section (gambling). What do you think guys ?

I agree, the giving of negative trust is not stopping people from investing, at least not on some of the ponzis. I have also noticed that ponzis are getting away with negative trust by using two accounts, one to create their OP and others to post from to give updates, this forces people to read entire threads they have no interest in participating in to determine if their "spokesperson" account has negative trust.

I don't think theymos is going to institute any newbie restrictions although I do think it would at least slow down the ponzis. Ironically allowing so many newbies to create crap threads is probably hurting actual newbies who potentially want to participate in some kind of casino and/or gambling game because it is very difficult to navigate the gambling section without having to go past a huge number of ponzi sites/games. As a result they will probably not participate in any bitcoin related ponzis.

---

I am a big supporter of a "free market" however all these ponzi's really are giving bitcoin a very bad name, and will probably make a "good" number of people lose confidence in bitcoin in general.

I am curious to know if anyone is able to point to a ponzi that has been around for at least two weeks, had at least 50 participants and has not scammed. Does anyone know of any?

This is not cloud mining when 80% of the companies are scams, this is, as far as I can tell a phenomena where all of the sites/games are a scam.

The negative trust isn't doing anything. The Gambling board, as we speak, is overrun completely even with all the operators carrying red trust. 3/4 threads are hyip related. They scam with a brand new account and then make a new one. If there were some kind of restriction for newbie new posts, it would help. Newbie jail, like the forum had before, would curtail the number of new threads and shill posters.

I'm not sure a different section 4 Ponzi would suffice; also, making an ad-hoc section for them seems to be exposing the bitcointalk forum (and its Admins) to legal liability for "supporting" them. I think a better solution is if everyone here hand to Ponzi runners a fair share of -ve trust.

There is no way to defend ponzis with logical arguments.

How much overwhelming forum support is needed before any action is taken for a different section?

+1

The others who claims different, there are 2 options :
1. u're incredible naive ( i tried to be nice)
2. u're behind these scams and try to convince us they are a game (rofl)

+1. A ponzi is a fraud, period. Just changing the word scheme in a Ponzi scheme to game is not making it legit.

Nobody here said that Ponzis are games. We are just talking about the "Ponzi Games", gambling games that tell you the risks involved and have people sending money in hope that people will send after them so they can claim the extra %.

with the stupidity i see in this topic, no wonder these scams keep showing up daily ... "ponzi is a game" .... jesus christ .... 

Gotta agree. Most of the ponzi game did say it is a ponzi game. To be honest, I dont look at the 'trust' when investing in ponzi schemes. Well, because I kniw people giving them 'red' without risking anything.

Thanks for understanding. But I don't think I'll be able to persuade quickseller myself... If someone else would like to try then please, go ahead.

Not all. Are all the dice sites legit?

Let me break it down for everyone:

Argument #1: Ponzi sites are illegal
So are gambling websites that don't have the proper gambling licenses.
So are Bitcoin exchanges that do not have the proper money transmitter licenses or AML procedures.
So are lenders that don't abide by payday loan laws.
So are public performances of the song "Happy birthday to you" which is copyrighted by Warner/Chappell Music.

Argument #2: All ponzi sites are a scam

If the ponzi site fulfills their side of the deal and does exactly what they promise and both parties are willingly trading, where did the scam occur?

Argument #3: Ponzi's should be banned because they make Bitcoin look "bad"
Instead of banning ponzi's, why don't we make things a bit better and form a mining cartel, make a blacklist of bitcoin addresses known to be used by ponzi sites and never confirm any ponzi site payments?

 

The general ethos of Bitcoin is for free market trade and against regulation. How can you actually believe that and at the same time be trying to ban people from using Bitcoin because it makes Bitcoin look bad?

Argument #4: Most ponzi sites aren't provably fair so they are scams
There is probably a way to make ponzi sites provably fair using tx scripts. But if ponzi sites are a scam due to the lack of provably fair, then so are all gambling sites that don't have provably fair, such as poker sites and sportsbook websites.

Argument #5: Ponzi's arent entertainment
People have different opinions on what entertainment is. It may not be entertaining for you, but I'm sure its entertaining for others.

Argument #6: Ponzi's are scams because people will lose money
There will always be people who lose money on any gambling website. Otherwise the website would be losing money.

Thats all the arguments I can think of right now.

Yes of course , feedback removed now try to discuss with tysat , quickseller, shorena etc...

I think because these Ponzi games are working around the ponzi schemes (which they do), does make you able to talk about ponzi games.

In my opinion something is a forbidden ponzi scheme IF the participants are NOT aware of the fact that they are participating in a ponzi scheme.   In (most) of these games, it's clearly stated that they are participating in a ponzi, and therefore explicitly take the risk that comes with the game by participating.

Whether of not these ponzi games should be banned from this forum or in total, I don't know. Personally I should allow them AS LONG AS they clearly mention the rules of the game, thus clearly mention that you are participating in a ponzi and therefore it's likely that you lose your investment (if your not one of the very early participants).