Poor wittle miners taking their ball and going home - page 2.

sorryforthat

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Quote from: arbitrage001 on January 15, 2015, 12:06:37 PM

Quote from: solid12345 on January 14, 2015, 02:17:00 PM

Am I the only one who doesn't get how miners think they have to shut things down the moment Bitcoin becomes unprofitable? Do gold miners quit mining because they haven't found gold in a few weeks and are not making much money?

What is the point to mining but to speculate, if I dropped out of crypto everytime I made a loss then the market would go nowhere. This is capitalism, nothing in life is certain and handed to you on a silver platter. Write it off on your taxes and hold your coins and hope for next month to make up your losses and then osme.

Asic manufacture has much lower cost than average miners. But I doubt they can continue production any longer if price stay this low.

I hope they cant, so smaller hobby miners can get a little more out of their rigs

arbitrage001

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Quote from: solid12345 on January 14, 2015, 02:17:00 PM

Am I the only one who doesn't get how miners think they have to shut things down the moment Bitcoin becomes unprofitable? Do gold miners quit mining because they haven't found gold in a few weeks and are not making much money?

What is the point to mining but to speculate, if I dropped out of crypto everytime I made a loss then the market would go nowhere. This is capitalism, nothing in life is certain and handed to you on a silver platter. Write it off on your taxes and hold your coins and hope for next month to make up your losses and then osme.

Asic manufacture has much lower cost than average miners. But I doubt they can continue production any longer if price stay this low.

oceancucumber

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Mining is necessary for proof of work, right?

ik_do

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What I don't understand is if all of BTC's coins are going to be fully distributed soon--why do miners matter as much?

From what I've read of it, if all commercial miners disappeared it actually wouldn't matter because there is enough worldwide interest in the currency that people would still support the network (even if it is at cost or at a slight loss)

So going out on a limb here and assuming miners aren't that important in the grand scheme of thing (they were important to mine all the coins initially) then isn't commercial-mining just going to die out and supply/demand will end up being the real deciding value of the currency?

I'm pretty sure most of the commercial mining operations were in it to get rich quick and instantly sold most of their coins to cover their costs--so why would users of BTC even want miners just dumping all their coins as fast as possible?

(and yeah I could be wrong with everything said here, its just what I've gathered from reading around)

takagari

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If I can buy more bitcoin, with my power usage today, than my miner would produce. Why would I run them?

If a gold mining company was able to KNOW FOR A FACT, today they would spend 10,000 to produce 5 ounces, or they could go out and buy it for less (Or not spend at all) I can promise you, today they would not mine.

We miners are lucky, we know exactly what we will produce (sort of) at any given time Wink

Meanotor

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When i lose money i don't quit because i just paid for my lesson.

Having lost a lot of money on several occasions i find myself not losing as much anymore and i am more careful and can spot things i didn't consider looking at before.

I think with more getting my hands on i will become more experienced and finally Expert so I can help or give advice to other people.

I don't think a loss should make someone quit, it can only make someone wiser, including stepping back, taking it easy, investing more to lower the average cost, etc.

oceancucumber

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Quote from: expert4knowledge on January 14, 2015, 02:20:21 PM

I do not know what and/or who is behind this misfortune for bitcoin prices but it seems that it has at least correlation with oil prices.

This is interesting, I was just thinking about this today. Seems like a lot of people invest in crypto currencies along with traditional markets such as stock, bonds, and futures. It only makes sense that when the market takes a pounding, all segments are hit. Bitcoin is no exception to this rule. The wise investor buys when everybody sells and sells when everybody buys. At least, that's my best guess. I'm going to stick with it because I love the technology.

af_newbie

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Quote from: odolvlobo on January 14, 2015, 06:24:46 PM

But I will still buy a coin knowing full well I won't make money on it or recover my loss potentially weeks or months down the road. I'm just saying many miners have lost the speculative attitude of crypto, for all they know they could mine at a loss now but Bitcoins price could jump up 2x or 3x or more next month and instead of making ANY money/coins they will wish they had had those coins.

Mining is an a way to acquire bitcoins at a discount. Speculation on future value is a completely different issue. If a miner can acquire a bitcoin at a cost of $300 through mining, or they can acquire a bitcoin at a cost of $180 from a trader, they will stop mining and buy the bitcoin from the trader.

[/quote]

+1

And we are well below production cost....

odolvlobo

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Quote from: solid12345 on January 14, 2015, 05:35:41 PM

Quote from: odolvlobo on January 14, 2015, 05:14:47 PM

Quote from: solid12345 on January 14, 2015, 05:11:24 PM

Quote from: odolvlobo on January 14, 2015, 05:08:51 PM

You try hard to make stupidity sound so noble. Do you make trades that you know are bad? Why not? You are a trader! How can you shirk your responsibility to trade even if you know you are going to lose money!

Of course I don't make trades that I know are bad, you won't know they will be bad until days or weeks later and can only go off your gut feeling or market analysis. How many people lost their shirts on Blackcoin thinking it was the next LTC? Does that mean everyone who lost money on that should exit the crypto game for good?

Likewise, miners stop mining when they know they are going to lose money.

But I will still buy a coin knowing full well I won't make money on it or recover my loss potentially weeks or months down the road. I'm just saying many miners have lost the speculative attitude of crypto, for all they know they could mine at a loss now but Bitcoins price could jump up 2x or 3x or more next month and instead of making ANY money/coins they will wish they had had those coins.

Mining is a way to acquire bitcoins at a discount. Speculation on future value is a completely different issue. If a miner can acquire a bitcoin at a cost of $300 through mining, or they can acquire a bitcoin at a cost of $180 from a trader, they will stop mining and buy the bitcoin from the trader.

kendog77

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Quote from: countryfree on January 14, 2015, 05:42:19 PM

Who says miners are losing money? Any proof of that? Once they've bought their ASICs, electricity's cost is very low. They are making less money, that's right, but there's no sign any miner is actually losing money from its daily operation.

Because of the low BTC price and high difficulty, most miners spend at least half of their revenue on electricity.

The most efficient miners on the market are ~.5W/GH, so a 1 TH/s miner would use ~500W and earn ~$60/month at current difficulty and a BTC price of ~$180.

That .5W/GH miner would still use ~$37 (@10 cents/kwh) in electricity per month to earn $60.

Most miners are not running the most efficient hardware on the market, and many have costs that exceed 10 cents/kwh.

I have no doubt that a very high percentage of the mining market is in the red right now (probably between 25-50% of the network hashrate).

The economics of mining are terrible right now, so either miners will quit and the difficulty will go down (as it should given the low BTC price), or the price of bitcoin needs to go up.

Note: I ran a 30TH mining farm between April and August of this year, so I know what I'm talking about...

countryfree

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Your country may be your worst enemy

Who says miners are losing money? Any proof of that? Once they've bought their ASICs, electricity's cost is very low. They are making less money, that's right, but there's no sign any miner is actually losing money from its daily operation.

kendog77

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If the cost of a mining operation exceeds the expected return, most miners will shut down.

In the above situation, if a miner thinks BTC is undervalued and will increase in price, the rational thing to do is to stop mining and buy BTC directly.

For example, it makes zero economic sense to spend $300 to mine 1 BTC when the cost to buy 1 BTC is less than $300.

solid12345

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Quote from: odolvlobo on January 14, 2015, 05:14:47 PM

Quote from: solid12345 on January 14, 2015, 05:11:24 PM

Quote from: odolvlobo on January 14, 2015, 05:08:51 PM

You try hard to make stupidity sound so noble. Do you make trades that you know are bad? Why not? You are a trader! How can you shirk your responsibility to trade even if you know you are going to lose money!

Of course I don't make trades that I know are bad, you won't know they will be bad until days or weeks later and can only go off your gut feeling or market analysis. How many people lost their shirts on Blackcoin thinking it was the next LTC? Does that mean everyone who lost money on that should exit the crypto game for good?

Likewise, miners stop mining when they know they are going to lose money.

But I will still buy a coin knowing full well I won't make money on it or recover my loss potentially weeks or months down the road. I'm just saying many miners have lost the speculative attitude of crypto, for all they know they could mine at a loss now but Bitcoins price could jump up 2x or 3x or more next month and instead of making ANY money/coins they will wish they had had those coins.

Good real world example, Semgroup a big oil company here in my state was bleeding money years back and close to bankruptcy, their stock plummeted from I believe 80-100 dollars a share (can't remember exactly) to less than a dollar. Well some would have called buying into that stock insane yet those who gambled and took the risk were rewarded years later when the company recovered and the stock is now 63 dollars a share. You could have become a millionaire with just a few grand investment.

All i'm asking is where are people's balls at? How long has K-Mart or Sears been unprofitable yet you don't see them closing shop?

odolvlobo

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Quote from: solid12345 on January 14, 2015, 05:11:24 PM

Quote from: odolvlobo on January 14, 2015, 05:08:51 PM

You try hard to make stupidity sound so noble. Do you make trades that you know are bad? Why not? You are a trader! How can you shirk your responsibility to trade even if you know you are going to lose money!

Of course I don't make trades that I know are bad, you won't know they will be bad until days or weeks later and can only go off your gut feeling or market analysis. How many people lost their shirts on Blackcoin thinking it was the next LTC? Does that mean everyone who lost money on that should exit the crypto game for good?

Likewise, miners stop mining when they know they are going to lose money.

solid12345

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Quote from: odolvlobo on January 14, 2015, 05:08:51 PM

You try hard to make stupidity sound so noble. Do you make trades that you know are bad? Why not? You are a trader! How can you shirk your responsibility to trade even if you know you are going to lose money!

Of course I don't make trades that I know are bad, you won't know they will be bad until days or weeks later and can only go off your gut feeling or market analysis. How many people lost their shirts on Blackcoin thinking it was the next LTC? Does that mean everyone who lost money on that should exit the crypto game for good?

odolvlobo

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Quote from: solid12345 on January 14, 2015, 04:34:29 PM

Quote from: odolvlobo on January 14, 2015, 04:15:48 PM

Judging from your post, I assume that you must have a room full of ASICs mining away, supporting the network. If not, then why not?

I don't mine, i'm a trader. But I don't walk away from trading just because I make a few bad trades, lose some money and call it quits. Why are miners expected to break even every single day 100% of the time any more than I am?

If a mining company has been losing money for a few months straight then yes I would see the reason for shutting it down, but walking away just because they dipped into the unprofitably stage for less than a few weeks is silly. There are restaurants that can run in the red for months at a time before they finally shut down and their line of credit is dropped. If you claim to run a business then act like one and take the risk otherwise go get a job working for someone else.

You try hard to make stupidity sound so noble. Do you make trades that you know are bad? Why not? You are a trader! How can you shirk your responsibility to trade even when you know you are going to lose money!

solid12345

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Quote from: odolvlobo on January 14, 2015, 04:15:48 PM

Judging from your post, I assume that you must have a room full of ASICs mining away, supporting the network. If not, then why not?

I don't mine, i'm a trader. But I don't walk away from trading just because I make a few bad trades, lose some money and call it quits. Why are miners expected to break even every single day 100% of the time any more than I am?

If a mining company has been losing money for a few months straight then yes I would see the reason for shutting it down, but walking away just because they dipped into the unprofitably stage for less than a few weeks is silly. There are restaurants that can run in the red for months at a time before they finally shut down and their line of credit is dropped. If you claim to run a business then act like one and take the risk otherwise go get a job working for someone else.

odolvlobo

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Quote from: solid12345 on January 14, 2015, 02:17:00 PM

Am I the only one who doesn't get how miners think they have to shut things down the moment Bitcoin becomes unprofitable? Do gold miners quit mining because they haven't found gold in a few weeks and are not making much money?

Well, gold miners do shut down their mines if mining is no longer profitable.

Judging from your post, I assume that you must have a room full of ASICs mining away, supporting the network. If not, then why not?

cryptopaddles

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Quote from: solid12345 on January 14, 2015, 02:34:06 PM

Quote from: BreathOfZen on January 14, 2015, 02:19:42 PM

Indeed. To hell with rationality, covering costs, and business sense, this is Bitcoin!

Mainstream Businesses don't always break even every month or are profitable 100% of the time. Who shuts down their restaurant just because they had a bad month?

A bad month?! Have you been paying much attention much this past year? ?

stop4stuff

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lol... i'm still trogging along at 0.7 Gh/s getting maybe 700-900 satoshi a day Grin

Topic: Poor wittle miners taking their ball and going home - page 2. (Read 3060 times)