Topic: PoS coin with zero interest payout? (Read 1286 times)
The stake reward is what makes people want to hold the coins and run nodes. Without the stake reward there is little motivation to get or hold the coins. Yes, it's true there are fewer coins, but that's part of the balance.
Well, what does negative staking mean exactly?
What I am thinking about right now, is a kind of "offline penalty", meaning, wallets that are not active(i.e. staking, sending or receiving coins), lose a percentage of what they hold. What is lost is paid back to those who stake. This has some interesting implications:
- first of all, it wouldn't be much more of a "switcharoo", meaning, effectively the value of a coin where new coins are mined/forged decreases as well, but the numbers look a bit different.
- Coins can't get lost forever, because over time, they will get back into the system. This is quite interesting, because this mitigates one of the bigger problems of fixed amount coins.
- People are incentivised to either stake or use their coins, not to hold them long time in cold storage.
What I am thinking about right now, is a kind of "offline penalty", meaning, wallets that are not active(i.e. staking, sending or receiving coins), lose a percentage of what they hold. What is lost is paid back to those who stake. This has some interesting implications:
- first of all, it wouldn't be much more of a "switcharoo", meaning, effectively the value of a coin where new coins are mined/forged decreases as well, but the numbers look a bit different.
- Coins can't get lost forever, because over time, they will get back into the system. This is quite interesting, because this mitigates one of the bigger problems of fixed amount coins.
- People are incentivised to either stake or use their coins, not to hold them long time in cold storage.
It is probably possible, or with dust amounts, that will lead you to near the same result. Question is : what will incentivise people to do it ?
POS coin every stake can reward
pos coin interest much people stake because can reward
so if pos coin with zero interest can't say pos coin, because every pos coin must can reward
pos coin interest much people stake because can reward
so if pos coin with zero interest can't say pos coin, because every pos coin must can reward
i dont think you understand what I mean. I know how pos works. actually i am the one who created the first pure pos coin. but if you use blockchain for something else, you may want the blockchain is alive without active mining using pos mechanism, but you may not want additional coins being generated. Howver I am not sure with zero interest if there are other issues such as security, hence the question.
So why would they stake or run the wallet if there is no rewards or profits to be made,people are going for POS coin because do not want the mining stuff and people are storing to their wallet because that will determine how much rewards they are going to get..
Sorry if this question is already answered before, I couldn't find the corresponding info.
PoW by bitcoin is used as a driving force for the blockchain like bitcoin, litecoin etc, so new blocks are being added regularly. Evidently, PoW is not the only way, since 2014, a bunch of "pure" PoS coins are created and in which there is no active mining happening, the blocks are being added to blockchain by the "interests" created. This is a good thing as if I use blockchain to do other things (say to track stock transactions eventually), I won't bother to have a bunch of miners to keep the blockchain alive.
But in some cases I found the "interests" are annoying, I don't want the number of coins increasing, nor do I want to mine the coin actively to keep it alive. Can I set the interest to zero and use the same PoS mechanism? Well for now it tells me that the minimum work not satisfied, but I think I can fix the code to make it going. My question is: do you see other issues (like security etc) for zero interest pos coin?
PoW by bitcoin is used as a driving force for the blockchain like bitcoin, litecoin etc, so new blocks are being added regularly. Evidently, PoW is not the only way, since 2014, a bunch of "pure" PoS coins are created and in which there is no active mining happening, the blocks are being added to blockchain by the "interests" created. This is a good thing as if I use blockchain to do other things (say to track stock transactions eventually), I won't bother to have a bunch of miners to keep the blockchain alive.
But in some cases I found the "interests" are annoying, I don't want the number of coins increasing, nor do I want to mine the coin actively to keep it alive. Can I set the interest to zero and use the same PoS mechanism? Well for now it tells me that the minimum work not satisfied, but I think I can fix the code to make it going. My question is: do you see other issues (like security etc) for zero interest pos coin?
Great question. Can't believe NXT hasn't been mentioned, was the first 100% POS coin with no POW.
It's exactly what you describe. Has no interest, zero inflation. Miners/stakers that create a new block are only rewarded with the transaction fees payed by users, not with new coins.
And indeed, due to this you can't earn a lot as a staker. Still many are staking, about 35% of all coins are securing the network so in order to do a 51% attack you would have to get control of about 20% of the coins, or 200 million nxt, which is likely very hard to achieve.
Up until today NXT has never been attacked successfully, it's now running for 3 years.
Yes Nxt is possibly the 1st pure POS coin, but it basically copied from bitcoin blockchain. It's a nice coin nevertheless.
Also thanks BitcoinNational for ideas, will look more into it.
in any active network you are going to see lost coins; from people sending to incorrect addresses, to people losing their .dat files, etc, so if you have 0 rewards then it essentially means that the currency would be deflationary, and people have no incentive to stake. So all you have to do is have a staking reward that is just high enough to make up for lost coins, the overall supply won't increase but people will still have incentive to support the network. Monero's (PoW) planned tail-emission I believe is designed for this exact situation, I'm sure you could do something similar with PoS.
But I don't think you get what the original post means. If I understand it correctly, he wants to use the blockchain technology for something else, not used as a coin, but other things like to record transactions. The coin will be most likely used as an invisible token, in which case you would not worry about the lost of coins. Let's say, if I build something to record all transactions of a stock, from the IPO time to the end (maybe delisted or being bought), all transactions can be recorded in the blockchain (which acts like a distributed database - the real difference with a distributed database exist today (such as cassandra) is that it is tamper-proof, of course it is run by a bunch of nodes, say each stock dealer run a node.
I think it is an excellent use-case, and I will be very interested in it if someone has further ideas with it.
Hi dream, thanks for clarifying. Nice to see you again in the forum!
No staking rewards means people are going to set their reservebalance to maximum and stop staking, which leaves your network vulnerable to attack. I wouldn't recommend it.
Hazard, you always there! lol. Nice to see you again! I think valley wants to try it for a different use case.
in any active network you are going to see lost coins; from people sending to incorrect addresses, to people losing their .dat files, etc, so if you have 0 rewards then it essentially means that the currency would be deflationary, and people have no incentive to stake. So all you have to do is have a staking reward that is just high enough to make up for lost coins, the overall supply won't increase but people will still have incentive to support the network. Monero's (PoW) planned tail-emission I believe is designed for this exact situation, I'm sure you could do something similar with PoS.
But I don't think you get what the original post means. If I understand it correctly, he wants to use the blockchain technology for something else, not used as a coin, but other things like to record transactions. The coin will be most likely used as an invisible token, in which case you would not worry about the lost of coins. Let's say, if I build something to record all transactions of a stock, from the IPO time to the end (maybe delisted or being bought), all transactions can be recorded in the blockchain (which acts like a distributed database - the real difference with a distributed database exist today (such as cassandra) is that it is tamper-proof, of course it is run by a bunch of nodes, say each stock dealer run a node.
I think it is an excellent use-case, and I will be very interested in it if someone has further ideas with it.
NXT still requires holding a massive share to make it even worth a Doge a post stakes.
Also it is a whole other ball of Cheddar cheese.
Less the fact, NXT, in current state being less focus on the stake returns, more focus on the colored coin side chain-age features.
Theoretical chain exploration is more the intent here.
That said I think the Graphene type of fast and data rich 2.0 chains are kick ass, and doubt others unless they get with the program can keep up.
Also it is a whole other ball of Cheddar cheese.
Less the fact, NXT, in current state being less focus on the stake returns, more focus on the colored coin side chain-age features.
Theoretical chain exploration is more the intent here.
That said I think the Graphene type of fast and data rich 2.0 chains are kick ass, and doubt others unless they get with the program can keep up.
Sorry if this question is already answered before, I couldn't find the corresponding info.
PoW by bitcoin is used as a driving force for the blockchain like bitcoin, litecoin etc, so new blocks are being added regularly. Evidently, PoW is not the only way, since 2014, a bunch of "pure" PoS coins are created and in which there is no active mining happening, the blocks are being added to blockchain by the "interests" created. This is a good thing as if I use blockchain to do other things (say to track stock transactions eventually), I won't bother to have a bunch of miners to keep the blockchain alive.
But in some cases I found the "interests" are annoying, I don't want the number of coins increasing, nor do I want to mine the coin actively to keep it alive. Can I set the interest to zero and use the same PoS mechanism? Well for now it tells me that the minimum work not satisfied, but I think I can fix the code to make it going. My question is: do you see other issues (like security etc) for zero interest pos coin?
PoW by bitcoin is used as a driving force for the blockchain like bitcoin, litecoin etc, so new blocks are being added regularly. Evidently, PoW is not the only way, since 2014, a bunch of "pure" PoS coins are created and in which there is no active mining happening, the blocks are being added to blockchain by the "interests" created. This is a good thing as if I use blockchain to do other things (say to track stock transactions eventually), I won't bother to have a bunch of miners to keep the blockchain alive.
But in some cases I found the "interests" are annoying, I don't want the number of coins increasing, nor do I want to mine the coin actively to keep it alive. Can I set the interest to zero and use the same PoS mechanism? Well for now it tells me that the minimum work not satisfied, but I think I can fix the code to make it going. My question is: do you see other issues (like security etc) for zero interest pos coin?
Great question. Can't believe NXT hasn't been mentioned, was the first 100% POS coin with no POW.
It's exactly what you describe. Has no interest, zero inflation. Miners/stakers that create a new block are only rewarded with the transaction fees payed by users, not with new coins.
And indeed, due to this you can't earn a lot as a staker. Still many are staking, about 35% of all coins are securing the network so in order to do a 51% attack you would have to get control of about 20% of the coins, or 200 million nxt, which is likely very hard to achieve.
Up until today NXT has never been attacked successfully, it's now running for 3 years.
No staking rewards means people are going to set their reservebalance to maximum and stop staking, which leaves your network vulnerable to attack. I wouldn't recommend it.
yes. And I just said the incentive is if you wish to move from A to B then stake;
else the network does not move for 30-90 minutes.
BONUS is that you gain all fees in that window of time.
As popular demand picks up then that spans can shrink to to 3-9 seconds and as it wanes return to 30-90 minutes.
No staking rewards means people are going to set their reservebalance to maximum and stop staking, which leaves your network vulnerable to attack. I wouldn't recommend it.
in any active network you are going to see lost coins; from people sending to incorrect addresses, to people losing their .dat files, etc, so if you have 0 rewards then it essentially means that the currency would be deflationary, and people have no incentive to stake. So all you have to do is have a staking reward that is just high enough to make up for lost coins, the overall supply won't increase but people will still have incentive to support the network. Monero's (PoW) planned tail-emission I believe is designed for this exact situation, I'm sure you could do something similar with PoS.
agree. incentive is required to keep the chain moving.
I suggest the alternative is ...
1. you have coins and want to move them then risk capital if your claim is false. A new feature.
2. observers can benefit from proving a claim FALSE.
3. benefit comes from playing by the rules, and only claiming right if and only if you have the needed requisite to move the chain +1 more block.
4. should the chain stagnate ... then it moves slowly ... (PoW) planned tail-emission are muted as much as possible ... thus low inflation ... more specifically these POS planned tail-emission are released only upon network demands to speed up the chain and act like (PoW) planned tail-emissions. They gear up and down.
5. yes permissioned ledger it is
anyone see an alternative?
in any active network you are going to see lost coins; from people sending to incorrect addresses, to people losing their .dat files, etc, so if you have 0 rewards then it essentially means that the currency would be deflationary, and people have no incentive to stake. So all you have to do is have a staking reward that is just high enough to make up for lost coins, the overall supply won't increase but people will still have incentive to support the network. Monero's (PoW) planned tail-emission I believe is designed for this exact situation, I'm sure you could do something similar with PoS.
b) the sender and only the initial sender 'stakes' .... perhaps they post a 'bond' which can be claimed by witness if the TX is proven invalid ... any one sending coins in a 3 min target window would ride on the same block ... so perhaps a fee reward to the 1st sender incentive.
b) would be an interesting network ... likely very light weight ... only a couple 100 blocks per day.
b) would be an interesting network ... likely very light weight ... only a couple 100 blocks per day.
if I recall correct
FLT is built on some kind of 'velocity' concept;
thus active participants would pay themselves to collect the 'network' reward;
so in hindsight my suggested plan B is likely just the FLT scheme ... still would like to see a network where the staker claims the right but has to post a bond, witnesses can counter, and claim that bond if the TX is invalid.
the only 'twist' is that the staker gets rights on the fees from piggyback riders on his block ... determined by difficulty variable ... but focus on keeping a smooth chain time cycle, so recalculated quickly to the target average. also this allows for the network to run dormant or at low 'velocity' only adding to the block chain if and only if some one piggybacks ... else the block can remain open and take 30-60min to confirm for single TX issues.
so the chain defaults to a light weight state (data wise) if it is not popularly utilized.
re: how to charge the system with capital .... ?
we've done the ninja POW thing, so 2014, likely would take a consortium of validated capital to pledge base line value, and then float a new network with underwrit value.
Actually in POS algo only people who stake coins can support the whole network and if they can't get interest over their holding that coin can't get enough marketcap also because nobody wants to hold coin as well as this will make whole network centralized one, only dev hosting or staking few coins.
CUBE has both positive and negative staking. Link in sig
Thanks for the info, will check.
BTW, nice to see you still there, I still remember your SPOT, lol
Also I don't see Cube can do negative staking. It does random (but positive) staking.
POS coin every stake can reward
pos coin interest much people stake because can reward
so if pos coin with zero interest can't say pos coin, because every pos coin must can reward
pos coin interest much people stake because can reward
so if pos coin with zero interest can't say pos coin, because every pos coin must can reward
i dont think you understand what I mean. I know how pos works. actually i am the one who created the first pure pos coin. but if you use blockchain for something else, you may want the blockchain is alive without active mining using pos mechanism, but you may not want additional coins being generated. Howver I am not sure with zero interest if there are other issues such as security, hence the question.
As far as the stake, many started using a fixed amount per block instead of a %.
You could set one with fixed stake of .00000001 per block.
(You can try 0 , but if you have problems , just use .00000001 as a fixed reward.)
Security of your PoS coin comes from the # of coins staking and the difficulty number not the stake reward.
Longest Chain with the Most Difficulty Wins.
( If your difficulty is too low and someone comes online and causes a Reorg that wipes out 2 weeks worth of transactions, you have a problem.)
(You may want a checkpoint server, if your coins or difficulty are too low.)
Your Biggest issue, is how are you going to convince others to Stake this coin , when they are tying up resources for Zero incentive.
Now that is a Magic Trick , if you can pull that off.
FYI:
If Decentralization does not matter to you, just go out and pick up a ASIC Miner ,
design your coin to only accept blocks only from your ASIC IP Address location so no one one can make any blocks, and set your coin for 0 rewards.
It is Centralized, but it might as well be, because doubtful others would stake or mine it without a financial incentive.
Thanks for the info. I think I can make the zero interest working, but I am concerned about the security. You explained it clearly.
I am not worried about others to stake the coin, I am thinking to use the tech for something else, not for a altcoin to lure people to buy it and hype the value :-) like most of the altcoins in this forum. I just need to keep the blockchain running in an automatic way, then different client can add stuff to the blockchain. I am not concerned about the "value" of the coin, it is just an underlying token for the system.
CUBE has both positive and negative staking. Link in sig
POS coin every stake can reward
pos coin interest much people stake because can reward
so if pos coin with zero interest can't say pos coin, because every pos coin must can reward
pos coin interest much people stake because can reward
so if pos coin with zero interest can't say pos coin, because every pos coin must can reward
i dont think you understand what I mean. I know how pos works. actually i am the one who created the first pure pos coin. but if you use blockchain for something else, you may want the blockchain is alive without active mining using pos mechanism, but you may not want additional coins being generated. Howver I am not sure with zero interest if there are other issues such as security, hence the question.
As far as the stake, many started using a fixed amount per block instead of a %.
You could set one with fixed stake of .00000001 per block.
(You can try 0 , but if you have problems , just use .00000001 as a fixed reward.)
Security of your PoS coin comes from the # of coins staking and the difficulty number not the stake reward.
Longest Chain with the Most Difficulty Wins.
( If your difficulty is too low and someone comes online and causes a Reorg that wipes out 2 weeks worth of transactions, you have a problem.)
(You may want a checkpoint server, if your coins or difficulty are too low.)
Your Biggest issue, is how are you going to convince others to Stake this coin , when they are tying up resources for Zero incentive.
Now that is a Magic Trick , if you can pull that off.
FYI:
If Decentralization does not matter to you, just go out and pick up a ASIC Miner ,
design your coin to only accept blocks only from your ASIC IP Address location so no one one can make any blocks, and set your coin for 0 rewards.
It is Centralized, but it might as well be, because doubtful others would stake or mine it without a financial incentive.
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