Topic: PoS is far inferior to PoW - why are so many people advocating switching to PoS - page 2. (Read 12823 times)
November 19, 2014, 11:17:35 AM
Just wait until SPOW launches next year from the Uro team, then everybody can be happy
November 19, 2014, 06:32:46 AM
People are advocating DPoS, not PoS 
Read something about BitShares DPoS!
http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/DPOS_or_Delegated_Proof_of_Stake
Read something about BitShares DPoS!
http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/DPOS_or_Delegated_Proof_of_Stake
Ok, my secret inner circle plan will work there too, you with me?
Answering the question in the title: it's easy - no one wants to spend their money on mining equipment that is constantly getting cheaper.
Another reason is - few people already have A LOT of hashing power and they get an advantage compared to a regular folk. And regular folk is not happy with this fact at all
Another reason is - few people already have A LOT of hashing power and they get an advantage compared to a regular folk. And regular folk is not happy with this fact at all
It is a complex question, but the main thing is this.
In POS, wealth becomes more concentrated at the top over time and there is no way to break your way into the economy without the 'permission' of existing stakeholders.
In POW, although mining costs can and usually become prohibitive, there is always an entry into the economy.
I agree with you regarding the PoS situation, but strongly disagree with PoW.
Mining costs are ramping up with a speed of lightning and reward for block finding is going down. At some point there is no way to enter this economy since there are "top miners" who will simply outmine you.
Unlike top PoS stakeholders, top miners need to remain competitive. It means they need to have a revenue stream to perform timely hardware upgrades in order to stay on top of the game. But that's not an easy task because in a balanced PoW system mining is a break-even game, not a revenue stream, unless some shady schemes are employed with various mining derivatives and paper gigahashes for sale. So people need to be properly educated to not fall for this. If you don't own a physical mining equipment it will all end sour, like with paper gold.
In the grand scheme of things miners need to also do something useful for society in order to have a revenue stream and maintain their position (again in a balanced system mining is neither losing, nor gaining money), but doing so would prevent other actors from gaining total control over network. Freedom is vigilance, it's not for free and miner is your weapon.
I have a new PR stunt for you guys:
PoW - Proof Of Warforfreedom
PoS - Proof Of Snakeoilsalesmen
Good day
November 19, 2014, 04:42:51 AM
Answering the question in the title: it's easy - no one wants to spend their money on mining equipment that is constantly getting cheaper.
Another reason is - few people already have A LOT of hashing power and they get an advantage compared to a regular folk. And regular folk is not happy with this fact at all
Another reason is - few people already have A LOT of hashing power and they get an advantage compared to a regular folk. And regular folk is not happy with this fact at all
It is a complex question, but the main thing is this.
In POS, wealth becomes more concentrated at the top over time and there is no way to break your way into the economy without the 'permission' of existing stakeholders.
In POW, although mining costs can and usually become prohibitive, there is always an entry into the economy.
I agree with you regarding the PoS situation, but strongly disagree with PoW.
Mining costs are ramping up with a speed of lightning and reward for block finding is going down. At some point there is no way to enter this economy since there are "top miners" who will simply outmine you.
November 19, 2014, 02:34:39 AM
PoS means the rich get richer automatically. Sounds great... if you're rich.
Same thing with Bitcoin, only the rich can afford the big mining equipment needed.
Besides, variants like PoI, DPOS don't follow this. Ther eyou get paid for being useful.
November 19, 2014, 01:51:28 AM
November 19, 2014, 01:44:29 AM
^
Could you elaborate: What would be the final goal of the banks?
Could you elaborate: What would be the final goal of the banks?
In short: power.
They can print all the money they want.
[quotes removed]
Okay, power it is.
Again same problem with PoW and PoS. If an entity holds a majority of coins it can blackmail the market. It doesn't matter if more (=substantially more) coins can be created (nota bene at a decreasing rate and therefore slowly) in the far future.
The overwhelming majority might never feel the need to mine, but knowing that they can if they want to without permission, makes all the difference between PoW and PoS.
No, it doesn't. Very weak opium of the people, nobody's gonna fall for that.
-------
Bottom line we need a diversity (not hundreds but maybe a dozen) of cryptos using different technologies but easily tradable.
And if the worst comes to the worst for one of them copy the code and start from scratch.
November 19, 2014, 12:42:26 AM
People are advocating DPoS, not PoS
Read something about BitShares DPoS!
http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/DPOS_or_Delegated_Proof_of_Stake
Read something about BitShares DPoS!
http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/DPOS_or_Delegated_Proof_of_Stake
November 18, 2014, 08:18:33 PM
lol that is the perfect plan.
I knew I was right on the money with Nxt, actaully created my account after learning about it.
EDIT:
A small remark.
With major Nxt promoters' names starting with Evil(Dave), Dark(horseofnxt) and eventually Sad(face) you are making our otherwise secret plan a little too obvious, we need more diversity in PR, devphp is doing good though, definitely a step in the right direction.
November 18, 2014, 08:11:25 PM
... Because PoS is a POS. 
November 18, 2014, 07:56:57 PM
PoS is better.
Why? Because money, greed and power take the path of least resistance.
PoS is easiest to obtain and generate, with little additional cost (ie. electricity to do staking)
Why? Because money, greed and power take the path of least resistance.
PoS is easiest to obtain and generate, with little additional cost (ie. electricity to do staking)
yep, thats the reason why gold-rich people store their gold in their cellar because its cheeper than putting it in a safe with guards
November 18, 2014, 07:33:41 PM
PoS is better.
Why? Because money, greed and power take the path of least resistance.
PoS is easiest to obtain and generate, with little additional cost (ie. electricity to do staking)
Why? Because money, greed and power take the path of least resistance.
PoS is easiest to obtain and generate, with little additional cost (ie. electricity to do staking)
November 18, 2014, 07:16:54 PM
lol that is the perfect plan.
November 18, 2014, 05:49:41 PM
If Bitcoin remains PoW, they can still buy that vast majority of coins, but everybody will have a trump card.
You know perfectly well, that the overwhelming majority of people will never mine any bitcoins and will never be able to compete with professional miners, just like majority of people don't compete with professional miners of natural resources. What matters for the majority of people is unique use cases. How the crypto currency came into existence doesn't matter for them if they have to buy it anyway, as long as it's a decentralized blockchain, distributed consensus and secure network - that's all that matters.
The overwhelming majority might never feel the need to mine, but knowing that they can if they want to without permission, makes all the difference between PoW and PoS.
There is no difference, who would prohibit them from forging in NXT PoS and get a profit from fees? Do they somehow get mining equipment for free to mine Bitcoin? I'd like to get me a few free ASICs then, oh and free electricity too
This is how I would conquer the world with Nxt, you might wanna take notes
I would identify major stakeholders and find the way to contact them.
I would establish a secret inner circle of stakeholders, which cumulatively maintain the majority vote.
I would make sure that public doesn't get spooked about the action by keeping a percentage of stake available for free trading on the exchanges to create an illusion of choice.
Now, because technological breakthrough and innovation cannot challenge the possession of stake within the circle to maintain control over transactions, I can now consider the first phase of my plan as stable and concentrate on the rest.
Not getting newer ASICs for free is exactly the point of PoW, because somebody someplace might be developing on-chip photonics that will make existing hardware obsolete. This happened with CPUs, happened with GPUs, will happen with ASICs. Keeping all the innovation within the established inner circle of control is so much harder, because you might never know what a nerdy prodigy kid is working on in his mom's basement.
November 18, 2014, 05:32:28 PM
Unless I am mis-understanding, anybody with at least 50% stake can do that.
With PoW mining, a 51% attacker can not force you to stop mining (short of seizing or bombing your equipment).
With PoW mining, a 51% attacker can not force you to stop mining (short of seizing or bombing your equipment).
Please explain.
This feels like a trap question. Transparent Forging is not implemented yet. For the sake of argument I decided to look at the link explaining how it works. It turns out that Come-from-Beyond is actually on my ignore list (due to general nonsense posts rather than sig advertising). The paper he cites is from 2011, and describes PoS, not "transparent forging" (and then does not go into detail). Here is CFB's description of the process:
And the most important feature:
The network can detect which miners don't take part in block generation and act accordingly.
The last point deserves to be described with more details.
Imagine someone is going to do a "51%" attack against Nxt and he owns 90% of all coins. The adversary must stop generating blocks for legit branch coz he won't be able to compete against 100% mining power with his 90%. So he decides to "skip" his turn to generate a block. The rest 10% of the network detects this and penalizes the adversary by setting his mining power to 0 and distributing it among other miners. Now the network is back to 100% power coz everyone got 10-fold increase. The adversary can mine other branch in a secret place but it won't be able to replace the legit branch. Of course, the 2nd branch will have 100% "hashing" power tied to it as well, coz the attacker will get his 90% bumped to 100% but this can be counteracted by some mechanisms of advanced consensus (still not revealed).
The network can detect which miners don't take part in block generation and act accordingly.
The last point deserves to be described with more details.
Imagine someone is going to do a "51%" attack against Nxt and he owns 90% of all coins. The adversary must stop generating blocks for legit branch coz he won't be able to compete against 100% mining power with his 90%. So he decides to "skip" his turn to generate a block. The rest 10% of the network detects this and penalizes the adversary by setting his mining power to 0 and distributing it among other miners. Now the network is back to 100% power coz everyone got 10-fold increase. The adversary can mine other branch in a secret place but it won't be able to replace the legit branch. Of course, the 2nd branch will have 100% "hashing" power tied to it as well, coz the attacker will get his 90% bumped to 100% but this can be counteracted by some mechanisms of advanced consensus (still not revealed).
I fail to understand why an attacker has to choose which chain to participate in. CFB never explains this. If I had 50% stake, I can say "la,la,la I can't hear you!" and pretend all other participants are offline.
Quote
Why do you have status "Sold 50% due to mining concentration." then below your username?
Because Ghash.io did not understand that they were becoming a central point of failure. Under coercion they (with the majority of the hash-power) would be able to:
- prohibit unknown (with no ownership information) keys from spending BItcoin
- ignore blocks from other miners.
While other miners can counteract this by buying hash-power, it takes time. Some have argued that a lot of pooled hash-power can actually switch loyalties relatively quickly. However, it is not clear how much hash-power Ghash.io has in-house.
November 18, 2014, 04:41:46 PM
Unless I am mis-understanding, anybody with at least 50% stake can do that.
With PoW mining, a 51% attacker can not force you to stop mining (short of seizing or bombing your equipment).
With PoW mining, a 51% attacker can not force you to stop mining (short of seizing or bombing your equipment).
Please explain.
Why do you have status "Sold 50% due to mining concentration." then below your username?
November 18, 2014, 04:23:37 PM
There is no difference, who would prohibit them from forging in NXT PoS and get a profit from fees? Do they somehow get mining equipment for free to mine Bitcoin? I'd like to get me a few free ASICs then, oh and free electricity too
Unless I am mis-understanding, anybody with at least 50% stake can do that.
With PoW mining, a 51% attacker can not force you to stop mining (short of seizing or bombing your equipment).
November 18, 2014, 04:16:04 PM
If Bitcoin remains PoW, they can still buy that vast majority of coins, but everybody will have a trump card.
You know perfectly well, that the overwhelming majority of people will never mine any bitcoins and will never be able to compete with professional miners, just like majority of people don't compete with professional miners of natural resources. What matters for the majority of people is unique use cases. How the crypto currency came into existence doesn't matter for them if they have to buy it anyway, as long as it's a decentralized blockchain, distributed consensus and secure network - that's all that matters.
The overwhelming majority might never feel the need to mine, but knowing that they can if they want to without permission, makes all the difference between PoW and PoS.
There is no difference, who would prohibit them from forging in NXT PoS and get a profit from fees? Do they somehow get mining equipment for free to mine Bitcoin? I'd like to get me a few free ASICs then, oh and free electricity too
November 18, 2014, 04:08:41 PM
Answering the question in the title: it's easy - no one wants to spend their money on mining equipment that is constantly getting cheaper.
Another reason is - few people already have A LOT of hashing power and they get an advantage compared to a regular folk. And regular folk is not happy with this fact at all
Another reason is - few people already have A LOT of hashing power and they get an advantage compared to a regular folk. And regular folk is not happy with this fact at all
It is a complex question, but the main thing is this.
In POS, wealth becomes more concentrated at the top over time and there is no way to break your way into the economy without the 'permission' of existing stakeholders.
In POW, although mining costs can and usually become prohibitive, there is always an entry into the economy.
... there is always an entry into the economy.
It doesn't really matter if you cannot enter at all or if you can enter and receive only a marginally low share (close to zero) at extremely high costs.
There's better options for both cases and in the long run both cases will be solved by the market.
Let's call it a draw.
In the orchestrated bank take-over scenario I outline up-thread, it makes a huge difference.
If Bitcoin is converted to PoS, the banks can take control by printing unlimited money. If Bitcoin remains PoW, they can still buy that vast majority of coins, but everybody will have a trump card. If the price gets too high, you can simply start mining instead of buying on the open market.
It may be that mining becomes so expensive that only nation-states can do it. That would still be an improvement over what we have now.
Edit: added link to the "The American Dream" animated short film about the history of Central Banks in the USA. They briefly mention Great Britain as well.
Bingo!
I'm glad there are still people who get the point!
If Bitcoin remains PoW, they can still buy that vast majority of coins, but everybody will have a trump card.
You know perfectly well, that the overwhelming majority of people will never mine any bitcoins and will never be able to compete with professional miners, just like majority of people don't compete with professional miners of natural resources. What matters for the majority of people is unique use cases. How the crypto currency came into existence doesn't matter for them if they have to buy it anyway, as long as it's a decentralized blockchain, distributed consensus and secure network - that's all that matters.
The overwhelming majority might never feel the need to mine, but knowing that they can if they want to without permission, makes all the difference between PoW and PoS.
November 18, 2014, 02:53:41 PM
^
Could you elaborate: What would be the final goal of the banks?
Could you elaborate: What would be the final goal of the banks?
In short: power.
They can print all the money they want.
Quote from: Times of London newspaper, 1865
If that mischievous financial policy which had its origin in the North American Republic [debt-free money] should become indurated down to a fixture, then that government will furnish its own money without cost. It will pay off its debts and be without a debt to the International Bankers. It will have all the money necessary to carry on its commerce. It will become prosperous beyond precedent in the history of the civilized governments of the world. The brains and wealth of all countries will go to North America. That government must be destroyed or it will destroy every monarchy on the globe!
Quote from: Senator Louis T. McFadden, Chairman US Banking & Currency Commission
We have in this country one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. I refer to the Federal Reserve Board and the Federal Reserve Banks. They are not government institutions. They are private monopolies which prey upon the people of these United States for the benefit of themselves and their foreign customers. This evil institution has impoverished the people of the United States and has practically bankrupted our government, and it has done this through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it.
Quote from: Congressman Larry P. McDonald, 1976
The drive of the Rockefellers and their allies is to create a one-world government, all under their control. Do I mean conspiracy? Yes I do. I am convinced there is such a plot, international in scope, generations old in planning, and incredibly evil in intent.
Quote from: David Rockefeller, Memoirs, 2002
For more than a century, ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as ‘internationalists’ and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure – one world, if you will. If that’s the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it.
Quote from: David Rockefeller, Trilateral Commission Founder, 1991
We are grateful to the Washington Post, the New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subject to the bright lights of publicity during those years. But the work is now much more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national auto-determination practiced in past centuries.
Quotes pulled from here.
November 18, 2014, 02:47:00 PM
PoS means the rich get richer automatically. Sounds great... if you're rich.
That is how the current system is too, only rich people were able to afford massive server farms to mine Bitcoin and those with greater access to manufacturing are now having more control of the network by running it.
In proof of stake, the clients that people use are the things powering the network again, it better captures Satoshi's original vision of crypto currencies being run by a distributed network of users. Also on Blackcoin the amount you gain per year is 1%, almost makes it like a savings account which is nice considering you must use electricity to run your computer with the client. I originally thought exactly the same thought when I first heard the idea but when I read more about it I discovered that had been considered in the specifications of Blackcoin.
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