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Topic: PoS is far inferior to PoW - why are so many people advocating switching to PoS - page 3. (Read 12861 times)

member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
Bitcoin trolls back
Even though on the surface two schemes might seem somewhat similar, they are fundamentally different:
PoW - neutrality, freedom of innovation, hacker mentality, equality of opportunity, game of skills
PoS - entrenched interests, corruptible humans, oppression, inheritance of wealth, game of luck

Shining example of how financial interest messes up judgment. Keep sticking to it and you will remain wondering how the PoS coins are getting more and more marketcaps.

I prefer to diversify enough to not let any personal bias get in the way of my judgement.
But it's not about me and it's not about you either, it's about what we are going to tell future generations.

This is a junction point in history again, when you can become a stakeholder overlord if you want to, but little do those wannabe overlords know that winning in a rigged game ain't fun.

PoS means the rich get richer automatically. Sounds great... if you're rich.

On a certain level it's no longer about wealth, it's about control.
PoS allows to maintain control over money flow at no cost without letting any competition get in the way.
In PoW neutral algorithm judges the competition.

I do think that PoS has merit and a niche in the future. People will find it useful for sub-groups in society and companies will use it for managing their assets and shares. But organisizng an entire universal money system as PoS with select major stakeholders established in the beginning is simply asking for trouble. In that sense PoS is not much different than today's fiat.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 260
SCammers advocate PoS because they cannot secure their blockchains.

With Proof of Work is is blatantly obvious they will never be able to secure their blockchain, so instead they obfuscate about Proof of Stake, pretending that somehow Proof of Stake will let their garbage scamcoin be secure even though it of course will not be secure.

It is all about the scam, selling people insecure garbage. The more people become aware that Proof of Stake is not secure, the more newfangled scammy "secure the blockchain" methods get made up, all in the attampt to sell yet another insecure pile of crap by obfuscating the fact it is insecure crap.

TL;DR it is easier to fool idiots into thinking your garbage-coin is secure if you use Proof of Stake so scammers prefer Proof of Stake when creating new scamcoins.

-MarkM-


Next time you should double the number of words 'scam', 'insecure', 'crap' and so on, it will sound even more dramatic Wink
legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1090
SCammers advocate PoS because they cannot secure their blockchains.

With Proof of Work is is blatantly obvious they will never be able to secure their blockchain, so instead they obfuscate about Proof of Stake, pretending that somehow Proof of Stake will let their garbage scamcoin be secure even though it of course will not be secure.

It is all about the scam, selling people insecure garbage. The more people become aware that Proof of Stake is not secure, the more newfangled scammy "secure the blockchain" methods get made up, all in the attampt to sell yet another insecure pile of crap by obfuscating the fact it is insecure crap.

TL;DR it is easier to fool idiots into thinking your garbage-coin is secure if you use Proof of Stake so scammers prefer Proof of Stake when creating new scamcoins.

-MarkM-
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 260
If Bitcoin remains PoW, they can still buy that vast majority of coins, but everybody will have a trump card.

You know perfectly well, that the overwhelming majority of people will never mine any bitcoins and will never be able to compete with professional miners, just like majority of people don't compete with professional miners of natural resources. What matters for the majority of people is unique use cases. How the crypto currency came into existence doesn't matter for them if they have to buy it anyway, as long as it's a decentralized blockchain, distributed consensus and secure network - that's all that matters.
legendary
Activity: 1181
Merit: 1002
^
Could you elaborate: What would be the final goal of the banks?
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1001
Let the chips fall where they may.
... there is always an entry into the economy.

It doesn't really matter if you cannot enter at all or if you can enter and receive only a marginally low share (close to zero) at extremely high costs.

There's better options for both cases and in the long run both cases will be solved by the market.

Let's call it a draw.

In the orchestrated bank take-over scenario I outline up-thread, it makes a huge difference.

If Bitcoin is converted to PoS, the banks can take control by printing unlimited money. If Bitcoin remains PoW, they can still buy that vast majority of coins, but everybody will have a trump card. If the price gets too high, you can simply start mining instead of buying on the open market.

It may be that mining becomes so expensive that only nation-states can do it. That would still be an improvement over what we have now.

Edit: added link to the "The American Dream" animated short film about the history of Central Banks in the USA. They briefly mention Great Britain as well.
legendary
Activity: 1181
Merit: 1002
... there is always an entry into the economy.

It doesn't really matter if you cannot enter at all or if you can enter and receive only a marginally low share (close to zero) at extremely high costs.

There's better options for both cases and in the long run both cases will be solved by the market.

Let's call it a draw.
member
Activity: 98
Merit: 10
Answering the question in the title: it's easy - no one wants to spend their money on mining equipment that is constantly getting cheaper.

Another reason is - few people already have A LOT of hashing power and they get an advantage compared to a regular folk. And regular folk is not happy with this fact at all Smiley

It is a complex question, but the main thing is this.

In POS, wealth becomes more concentrated at the top over time and there is no way to break your way into the economy without the 'permission' of existing stakeholders.

In POW, although mining costs can and usually become prohibitive, there is always an entry into the economy.
member
Activity: 98
Merit: 10
This is not accurate. All decentralized consensus algos are vulnerable to 51% attacks whether it be PoS or PoW. Someone with enough hash power to 51% a PoW network can do so forever, or until the PoW network forks and changes PoW algos. Someone with 51% stake of a PoS coin can 51% the coin forever, or until the PoS network forks and burns the attacker's stake.

I disagree, the whitepaper showing otherwise is in my signature. Tongue Although it depends on what you mean by "51% attack". Reversing a secured transaction - 0% probability as long as one stake is honest. Delaying transactions - can be delayed 2x the average while controlling 50% of the stake, hardly impressive.

Your whitepaper is three-years-old behind current thinking. Using terms like 'voices' just to look different makes it look shallow.
Is IGotSpots your brother?
sr. member
Activity: 692
Merit: 254
terra-credit.com
Answering the question in the title: it's easy - no one wants to spend their money on mining equipment that is constantly getting cheaper.

Another reason is - few people already have A LOT of hashing power and they get an advantage compared to a regular folk. And regular folk is not happy with this fact at all Smiley
hero member
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
PoS means the rich get richer automatically. Sounds great... if you're rich.

In NXT power belongs to stake holder and it yields + 0.5%.
In BTC power belongs to third parties and it yields -10.0%.
member
Activity: 81
Merit: 1002
It was only the wind.
PoS means the rich get richer automatically. Sounds great... if you're rich.
legendary
Activity: 1181
Merit: 1002
PoS means the rich get richer automatically. Sounds great... if you're rich.

Sounds better than never breaking even with your mining equipment if your poor, as well.

We can conclude that PoS is better for the rich and the poor  Wink
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1000
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1000
Even though on the surface two schemes might seem somewhat similar, they are fundamentally different:
PoW - neutrality, freedom of innovation, hacker mentality, equality of opportunity, game of skills
PoS - entrenched interests, corruptible humans, oppression, inheritance of wealth, game of luck

Shining example of how financial interest messes up judgment. Keep sticking to it and you will remain wondering how the PoS coins are getting more and more marketcaps.
Ix
full member
Activity: 218
Merit: 128
This is not accurate. All decentralized consensus algos are vulnerable to 51% attacks whether it be PoS or PoW. Someone with enough hash power to 51% a PoW network can do so forever, or until the PoW network forks and changes PoW algos. Someone with 51% stake of a PoS coin can 51% the coin forever, or until the PoS network forks and burns the attacker's stake.

I disagree, the whitepaper showing otherwise is in my signature. Tongue Although it depends on what you mean by "51% attack". Reversing a secured transaction - 0% probability as long as one stake is honest. Delaying transactions - can be delayed 2x the average while controlling 50% of the stake, hardly impressive.
legendary
Activity: 1181
Merit: 1002
wtf? No! Nothing requires extreme amounts of computing in POS. That's the point of POS
Huh
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3372610
...
A few posts later...
...

And if we continue reading another few posts?

Edit: Thanks for adding the "Edit"
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1001
Let the chips fall where they may.
wtf? No! Nothing requires extreme amounts of computing in POS. That's the point of POS
Huh
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3372610

A few posts later...
Let's suppose you have 10% of stake and an alien's computer stolen from Area 51.  Odds to generate 60 block long chain at the rate of 1 block a minute are very small (something like 1/10000000000000...)  

If you can cycle through enough adresses per minute to generate a hits that are 9 times lower than the average hit...

Guys, where do u get these numbers from?

Anyway, what is necessary to generate accounts that will hit the target within 1 minute timeframe in average (necessary to outpace benevolent miners) will always be a function of how much stake the attacker deploys. You seem to have forgotten this

1. Generate a private key (~0 ms)
2. Calculate a public key (~0.005 ms on a high-end CPU, numbers taken from http://ed25519.cr.yp.to/)
3. Sign the generation signature of a previous block (~0.005 ms)
4. Calculate SHA-256 of the signature (~0 ms, sorry for disassembling the Nxt byte-code Smiley)
5. Compare first 8 bytes to the target (~0 ms)
6. Repeat #4 and #6 lot of times (~???, whole Bitcoin network would hit the target in a few milliseconds)

So 1 CPU will loop thru say 0.001 key/sec. We can't run a botnet with 1 million computers to get 1000 key/sec coz this task CAN NOT be parallelized. Each iteration requires data from the previous one.

Conclusion: we will have problems only if someone uses a quantum/alien computer, until that noone can succeed at such the attack.
What are you talking about? Sucess is not binary here. You don't need an exact match, just the ability to select a match that is better than average.

Even if it takes 1 complete second to do one interation of 4 and 5, the system is still in deep trouble.
Suppose there are two coinholders, one with 90% and the other with 10%.
Without manipulation, the guy with 90% will find blocks once every 67 seconds on average and the guy with 10% will find blocks once every 600 seconds.

Suppose the guy with 10% has time to test out 9 different addresses per minute. Each address will have a different waiting time. Picking the best among these nine candidates is sufficient to boost 10% stake up to the mining power of 90% stake.
If you can do 90 iterations per minute, then you can attack with 1%; 900 with 0.01%

Your estimate of 0.01 ms per iteration suggests that a successful attack could be pulled off with 1.67×10^-9% stake. What is that? 100 or 200 satoshi.

Obviously, this is not acceptable. Attackers should have to hold more than a few satoshis in order to mount a successful attack.


As for which PoS coin: Nxt.

Edit: it appears that was before the rolling re-org limit and maturity rules were decided on

Quote relevant to recent discussion about botnet of seed-nodes:
Quote
For new people downloading the blockchain, you have to allow them to designate trusted sources manually. Otherwise,  some asshole can send them a long irreversible chain, preventing them from catching up to the rest of the network.
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