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Topic: Possible sale of LTC-GLOBAL site code to someone who wants to run a BTC exchange - page 2. (Read 4522 times)

legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1006
Lead Blockchain Developer
Only securities issued in the United States have to be registered with the SEC. Canada doesn't have federal security laws, as far as I can tell they are provincial.

If you dont want to deal with the SEC you need to ban US citizens from using it.

Or operate offshore and ignore their requests.

A company in Canada is not beholden to the SEC.  Though the SEC could relay requests through local enforcement.

As an exchange, complying with the SEC regs is definitely going to fall on the asset issuers, and MarkM had a revelation yesterday that I think is going to work for the exchange, which is, as a listing requirement you have to sign a document stating that you have followed all of your regional laws in the creation of the security.
full member
Activity: 126
Merit: 100
Only securities issued in the United States have to be registered with the SEC. Canada doesn't have federal security laws, as far as I can tell they are provincial.
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1006
Lead Blockchain Developer
You're right that we should not attempt to code securities into the blockchain, that's not what I was thinking.

Bearer Bonds are basically illegal to issue everywhere, in the same way that all trades they can't federally regulate are illegal.

It seems to me that the difference is that BTC is not a fiat currency, no government has authority over it, so they can't regulate the types of stocks/bonds that people issue in Bitcoins. What they can control is what companies and individuals inside their borders do... and right now I don't think there are any clear laws in this country that govern this. We will only be taking in and distributing BTC, not exchanging BTC for fiat. We will see what the lawyers say, hopefully we can work within/around the laws of this country.

I will keep you updated, hopefully they are able to come up with a feasible plan for us.

Doesn't matter what you use to buy the security in the US, nor what you use for dividends, etc.  US definition of a security:

Code:
(1) The term "security" means any note, stock, treasury
stock, security future, security-based swap, bond, debenture,
evidence of indebtedness, certificate of interest or participation
in any profit-sharing agreement, collateral-trust certificate,
preorganization certificate or subscription, transferable share,
investment contract, voting-trust certificate, certificate of deposit
for a security, fractional undivided interest in oil, gas, or
other mineral rights, any put, call, straddle, option, or privilege
on any security, certificate of deposit, or group or index of securities
(including any interest therein or based on the value
thereof), or any put, call, straddle, option, or privilege entered
into on a national securities exchange relating to foreign currency,
or, in general, any interest or instrument commonly
known as a "security", or any certificate of interest or participation
in, temporary or interim certificate for, receipt for, guarantee
of, or warrant or right to subscribe to or purchase, any
of the foregoing.

If you're doing anything you see there, you have to be registering it with the SEC.  Doesn't seem to care much what currency you're using.  Could be swapping cats.

legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1090
Maybe try out the game idea too. Each city on a Freeciv planet in the Galactic Milieu that builds a stock exchange city-improvment should be able to run an Open Transactions server to represent that stock exchange and allow players to play at trading stocks and shares and bonds and so on on that city's exchange...

In fact it might even be the case that having a city that far developed will cost enough in hosting fees as it is that not bothering to have a server set up so people can actually trade on your city's stock exchange would be like all those folk who pay for more hosting than they ever use thus subsidise those who make full use of their quotas. That is, we might not even have to charge extra to set up such a server since the cost of developing a city to such a high stage of civilisation might already cover such costs. (Plus the "usage tokens" for anyone actually using it might pay for it of course so plenty of chance it will seem no extra cost to the city ruler.)


-MarkM-
full member
Activity: 126
Merit: 100
You're right that we should not attempt to code securities into the blockchain, that's not what I was thinking.

Bearer Bonds are basically illegal to issue everywhere, in the same way that all trades they can't federally regulate are illegal.

It seems to me that the difference is that BTC is not a fiat currency, no government has authority over it, so they can't regulate the types of stocks/bonds that people issue in Bitcoins. What they can control is what companies and individuals inside their borders do... and right now I don't think there are any clear laws in this country that govern this. We will only be taking in and distributing BTC, not exchanging BTC for fiat. We will see what the lawyers say, hopefully we can work within/around the laws of this country.

I will keep you updated, hopefully they are able to come up with a feasible plan for us.
legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1090
Bearer bonds are apparently illegal nowadays in some places (such as the USA apparently? Maybe Canada too?)

I am in Canada I'm interested in what you find out.

I am concerned that coding "securities" into the blockchain could demonise the blockchain, making everyone who conspires to propagate it an accessory to securities fraud or something like that...

(Before you laugh, read up on the Liberty Dollar. A form of domestic terrorism, apparently...)


-MarkM-
full member
Activity: 126
Merit: 100
I am meeting with my lawyers this week to investigate the legality of operating a bitcoin stock exchange, or something along those lines, in Canada. I deal with a global law firm that does a lot of work in the financial sector, so they should be able to provide me with a solid footing.

After the legal issues are sorted out, my main concern is how to create one that is not centralized, and not run by a small group of people. I am already working with some top notch security and hosting people, those problems can be managed fairly simply, if not inexpensively. However I would like to work with others in the bitcoin community to set up a transparent exchange with an accountable board of directors... if you are considering a similar project, we should talk.

Could encrypted bearer-type bonds be a potential solution to the risks of a centralized exchange being disrupted by hostile governments/hackers? Or is an exchange that operates completely via P2P the way we should be heading?
legendary
Activity: 1064
Merit: 1001
Or, more likely they'll all ignore it and go on their merry way.

That is 100% what I intend to do.  Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1090
Maybe you can simply require all issuers to submit notarised affadivits asserting that their asset is fully compliant with all laws rules and regulations pertaining in their jurisdiction?

-MarkM-


I love it, that's brilliant!



An Englishman's home is his jurisdiction, heh heh?

("Scratch an Englishman, find a pirate"? Wink)

-MarkM-
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1006
Lead Blockchain Developer
Maybe you can simply require all issuers to submit notarised affadivits asserting that their asset is fully compliant with all laws rules and regulations pertaining in their jurisdiction?

-MarkM-


I love it, that's brilliant!

legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1090
Maybe you can simply require all issuers to submit notarised affadivits asserting that their asset is fully compliant with all laws rules and regulations pertaining in their jurisdiction?

-MarkM-
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1006
Lead Blockchain Developer
Unfortunately if an American buys or sells on your site it makes you subject to the SEC. Its either go the silk road route or nothing.

If people think other stock exchanges are not going to go the way of glbse once they get "noticed" youre kidding.

I believe this is incorrect.  All exchanges in the world are not subject to the SEC.  Many exchanges have agreements with the SEC for information sharing, but many do not.  A company in Bermuda offering trading on the Bermuda exchange is not subject to the SEC in any way.

Now... the asset issuers, that's a whole different ball game.  If you are an american, and issue assets, no matter what exchange it is, you are subject to registration requirements by the SEC.  Based on the new JOBS act with it's crowdfunding exclusions, it has become much, much easier to register.

There's also always the "it's a video game" defense.  There are 100's of legal exchanges in the US.  Legal because they're 'virtual' or 'a game' or 'for training'.  Legal because when you join up you click through terms stating that you agree that nothing within the site is 'real'.  And even if some people trade your video game digital assets outside the game, does not mean it's not a game.  In game loot is traded on ebay every day.  That doesn't mean the games are not games.



legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1006
Lead Blockchain Developer
The real issue, as far as I can see, is that for someone to be trusted to handle a customer database and a huge quantity of funds, they should be known and identifiable.
BUT being known and identifiable means that they'll face immense legal pressure almost immediately.

Do we have anyone in a suitable location where such things would be legal?

Could go the piratebay route and put servers in tons of different countries to avoid centralization.

Anyway, I'm happy to support this venture in any way I can. Though I can't offer any web designing or programming skills, I will happily invest in the project. Let's have a solid plan in place and try not to end up like GLBSE Tongue


I don't think the exchange itself is going to have issues with legality once sold "offshore".

The problem then becomes that asset issuers will have to issue assets at their own risk and on their own recognizance.  We might see a big drop in US based asset issuers once they realize regulatory requirements of issuing securities.  Smiley  Or, more likely they'll all ignore it and go on their merry way.

legendary
Activity: 1064
Merit: 1001
The real issue, as far as I can see, is that for someone to be trusted to handle a customer database and a huge quantity of funds, they should be known and identifiable.
BUT being known and identifiable means that they'll face immense legal pressure almost immediately.

Do we have anyone in a suitable location where such things would be legal?

Could go the piratebay route and put servers in tons of different countries to avoid centralization.

Anyway, I'm happy to support this venture in any way I can. Though I can't offer any web designing or programming skills, I will happily invest in the project. Let's have a solid plan in place and try not to end up like GLBSE Tongue
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
With GLBSE closing, (see: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/nefario-115669) ... this is someone's golden opportunity...

Could be up and running in a week or two... Smiley


Perhaps we can organise a consortium of glbse securities that can relist on sucha  thing at least for a little while.

How much would we need to raise to buy the code ?

The real issue, as far as I can see, is that for someone to be trusted to handle a customer database and a huge quantity of funds, they should be known and identifiable.
BUT being known and identifiable means that they'll face immense legal pressure almost immediately.

Do we have anyone in a suitable location where such things would be legal?
legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1090
Good point. Maybe all we need is someone who has passed the tests or whatever to become a licensed stockbroker and will put all securities interested in listing through whatever licensing requirements are needed before listing them.

Another possiblity might be to so a "common carrier", "software as a service" server on which anyone can create any asset and the operator of the server just keeps the software running without looking at what exactly people are having it number-crunch for them except to de-list anything that a court order orders to be de-listed.

-MarkM-
legendary
Activity: 2590
Merit: 2156
Welcome to the SaltySpitoon, how Tough are ya?
Presumably you would want to run as a Tor hidden service, in which case folks might prefer a system such as Open Transactions that is designed not to require trusting the server.

-MarkM-


OT has it's place, central exchanges have their place.  It's apples and oranges.


Well trust and no need to trust really rather than apples and oranges.

If a server is to be anonymous to be hard to shut down, then not having to trust it is quite important.

If it is out in the open who owns it where its operating capital is stored and so on then Tor is likely not a good solution, instead some kind of "no extradition treaty" location might be needed.

(And don't bounty hunters just go kidnap people instead of extradition being used in those no extradition places? Since U.S. courts do not care whether kidnapping was used to cause the accused to appear in court?)

-MarkM-


But at the same time, if you are intentionally trying to hide it, and then the gov finds you, its hard to claim stupid. Oh yeah, I just thought it would be a good idea to try to hide it, I didn't know that you would come after me, and shut me down.

I think the best case senario is that its not illegal in the first place, and you can legally have it running. I guess we should just wait and see how everything turns out with Nefario. If he was doing something frowned upon, and got busted, fine. If he wasn't doing anything frowned upon besides running the exchange.... well....
legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1090
Presumably you would want to run as a Tor hidden service, in which case folks might prefer a system such as Open Transactions that is designed not to require trusting the server.

-MarkM-


OT has it's place, central exchanges have their place.  It's apples and oranges.


Well trust and no need to trust really rather than apples and oranges.

If a server is to be anonymous to be hard to shut down, then not having to trust it is quite important.

If it is out in the open who owns it where its operating capital is stored and so on then Tor is likely not a good solution, instead some kind of "no extradition treaty" location might be needed.

(And don't bounty hunters just go kidnap people instead of extradition being used in those no extradition places? Since U.S. courts do not care whether kidnapping was used to cause the accused to appear in court?)

-MarkM-
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1006
Lead Blockchain Developer
Presumably you would want to run as a Tor hidden service, in which case folks might prefer a system such as Open Transactions that is designed not to require trusting the server.

-MarkM-


OT has it's place, central exchanges have their place.  It's apples and oranges.
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1006
Lead Blockchain Developer
With GLBSE closing, (see: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/nefario-115669) ... this is someone's golden opportunity...

Could be up and running in a week or two... Smiley


I would advise that any potential buyers hold off on buying for a few days. +1 to Burnside for being a great exchange owner/manager, but I'm assuming at this point Nefario is getting strong armed by the gov, so we should probably wait and find out what they are trying to charge him with, and what legal issues could start sprouting out of crypto exchanges.

It would suck pretty badly if you purchased the exchange rights, started it up, and then got attacked immediately by the gov.

That being said, I'm interested as soon as all of this mess gets sorted.

+1, you absolutely HAVE to have a plan in place if you are going to succeed.

This is in part why I am willing to license the code even though I know it could make far more if I operate it myself.  Because I am not in an ideal position (read: country) to be running it.

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