I would like to bring this twitter post from Hal Finney into the discussion: https://twitter.com/halfin/status/1153096538
"Thinking about how to reduce CO2 emissions from a widespread Bitcoin implementation"
Please note the date of the tweet, 27 Jan 2009.
Topic: POW vs. POS - page 6. (Read 3657 times)
A lot of people argue that POS is better in the sense that it doesn't contribute to to making climate change worser than it is. I think both POW and POS has its ups and downs.
The problem is that there is a misconception about PoW impacting the climate on a large scale. For example, mining gold and other ores can be much more energy intensive; more insights you can get from this article (several months old): https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-04/bitcoin-vs-gold-which-ones-bubble-how-much-energy-do-they-really-consume although there are other reports with more recent information on the internet
A lot of people argue that POS is better in the sense that it doesn't contribute to to making climate change worser than it is. I think both POW and POS has its ups and downs.
PoW's disadvantage is all the energy use.
I think that the advantage of PoW over PoS in large scale implementations is indeed the fact that it uses raw processing power (translated in hashpower) and electricity; this way, the coin gets a real value, being backed by the amount of energy and equiment involved in securing the blockchain, while making it more resilient to larger attackers such as nation states.
That would make split-chain happen, but PoW won't have any problem when part of the network went online/can reach other part of network again since the "true" chain is the chain/block with biggest hashrate
Actually, as far as I know, in Bitcoin there are already implemented some mechanisms that can detect network partitioning; the downside is the fact a large portion of the hashpower is geographically located in areas susceptible to network partitioning behind strong firewalls - this can affect decentralization because not always the longest chain/with most accumulated hashpower is the *true* chain, as one can remember what happened in early 2013: https://freedom-to-tinker.com/2015/07/28/analyzing-the-2013-bitcoin-fork-centralized-decision-making-saved-the-day/
PoW's disadvantage is all the energy use.
I think that the advantage of PoW over PoS in large scale implementations is indeed the fact that it uses raw processing power (translated in hashpower) and electricity; this way, the coin gets a real value, being backed by the amount of energy and equiment involved in securing the blockchain, while making it more resilient to larger attackers such as nation states.
Neither one is perfect. They both have big flaws.
Every complex system has trade-offs, but for the moment PoW has shown its advantages in open, permissionless blockchains due to the robustness of the consensus protocol and its inherent simplicity that greatly reduces the attack surface.
If you do not go into the details, then you are absolutely right.
But there is one thing, with POS mining your wallet should always be open (running on the computer and not being closed), and you can not use these coins either. And accordingly each coin has different rewards.
But there is one thing, with POS mining your wallet should always be open (running on the computer and not being closed), and you can not use these coins either. And accordingly each coin has different rewards.
The Bitcoin doesn't use PoS. Altcoins also use PoW.
Correct me If I'm wrong, If bitcoin doesn't use PoS then what about the bitcoin's hardforks? Do they use PoS because we can earn the same or half amount of hardforks if we own an equal amount of bitcoins? Enlighten me
Correct me If I'm wrong, If bitcoin doesn't use PoS then what about the bitcoin's hardforks? Do they use PoS because we can earn the same or half amount of hardforks if we own an equal amount of bitcoins? Enlighten me
It has nothing to do with PoS, a Bitcoin fork is simply a copy of Bitcoin blockchain up to block x.
For example Bitcoin Cash is a fork of Bitcoin chain from block 478558. That means at block 478558 if you have coins on BTC chain, you'll also have coins on BCH chain. (CMIIW)
Some so called "bitcoin fork" need to generate coins from genesis block due to technicality, they'll take snapshot at block x then airdrop it. It might be 1:1 ratio or others.
The Bitcoin doesn't use PoS. Altcoins also use PoW.
Correct me If I'm wrong, If bitcoin doesn't use PoS then what about the bitcoin's hardforks? Do they use PoS because we can earn the same or half amount of hardforks if we own an equal amount of bitcoins? Enlighten me In Simply
POW - Half pre mined and rest of the coins will be mined by miners by validating the Transactions.
POS - all coins pre mined before add to circulations
POW - Half pre mined and rest of the coins will be mined by miners by validating the Transactions.
POS - all coins pre mined before add to circulations
This is simply incorrect, who taught you this cr*p? POW and POS is a blockchain consensus mechanism.
In a nutshell:
POW = block validator is the one who provide most of the work (which is computation power)
POS = block validator is the one who provide most of the coins at stake
That said in POW if you have 10x more hash power, you will be able to validate 10x more blocks. In POS if you have 10x more staked coins, you will be able to validate 10x more blocks. Here's the thing, actually POW is also a POS because you're staking electricity to generate such hash power. POW is considered superior because you stake thing (electricity) outside the system into the system, not like POS.
Full explanation here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W_3AQrQEOM
First ,get your concepts clear, POS is not mining.
For 51% attack, if you read the URL topic, you will understand that. For 51% attack in POS, I need to hold 51% of coin. Should I attack the coin in which I am the majority holder. Ok Give me an example in which a POS coin suffered or threatened by 51% attack.
For 51% attack, if you read the URL topic, you will understand that. For 51% attack in POS, I need to hold 51% of coin. Should I attack the coin in which I am the majority holder. Ok Give me an example in which a POS coin suffered or threatened by 51% attack.
No, PoS is not mining. PoS is an consensus algorithm. But there is a process called mining.
You should read my post more carefully. Mining is achieved via staking (Makes sense, doesn't it ?).
Mining does not mean to dig bitcoins out. Mining is the process of creating a new block and adding it to the blockchain (irrelevant whether PoS or PoW).
Mining does (logically) work differently in PoS compared to PoW.
POS:
One who has large stash of the coin will get big share, making rich more richer.
The same applies to PoW:One who has large stash of the coin will get big share, making rich more richer.
One who has large stash of money will get a lot of asics (and therefore more hashrate), making rich more richer.
Creating a hardfork is a senseless argument to bring.
The same can be applied to PoS: 'If coin forks itself and start using PoW then..'. Rubbish.
POS:
If coin holders want to keep somebody out of network they are able to do so by not distributing there coins outside their network.
If coin holders want to keep somebody out of network they are able to do so by not distributing there coins outside their network.
Don't Mind, I am just saying if coin creator and his group of friend decided that they will keep all the supply and do transactions between them only , then no body else will get the coin.(Hypothetically possible).
This does only work if the 'coin creator' and his group do not share any coin from the beginning (i.e. from the first block). This would be similar to a private chain/fork.
A small stake outside of the group would enable people to generate more 'outside of this group'. How is this either a pro/con regarding PoS ?
If it is a 'private chain': Who cares? Only the small group could care. Noone else would care about this coin.
If its not a 'private chain': It is not possible to achieve it in this case.
It is irrelevant.
--snip--
POW: It is costly method as you need Hardware(sometimes specialized also)and lot of electricity is used.
For Network big like Bitcoin, 51 % attack cost is too high but for some new coin where network is not so big (or do not have many miners)
51% attack can be successfully executed.
It make coin fully decentralized and anybody is free to mine.
POS: It is cheap method and no specialized hardware is required. Electricity requirement are also minimal.
One who has large stash of the coin will get big share, making rich more richer.
If coin holders want to keep somebody out of network they are able to do so by not distributing there coins outside their network.
Great writeup. I'd also just want to add POS also encourages holding
Agreed, In POS more you hold, more you get in stakes.
POW:
For Network big like Bitcoin, 51 % attack cost is too high but for some new coin where network is not so big (or do not have many miners)
51% attack can be successfully executed.
It make coin fully decentralized and anybody is free to mine.
For Network big like Bitcoin, 51 % attack cost is too high but for some new coin where network is not so big (or do not have many miners)
51% attack can be successfully executed.
It make coin fully decentralized and anybody is free to mine.
An 51% attack is completely independent from the consensus algorithm (PoS/PoW).
Decentralization also does not depend on PoS vs. PoW. Depending on the implementation of the PoS algorithm, mostly anyone can mine.
For 51% attack, if you read the URL topic, you will understand that. For 51% attack in POS, I need to hold 51% of coin. Should I attack the coin in which I am the majority holder. Ok Give me an example in which a POS coin suffered or threatened by 51% attack.
POS: It is cheap method and no specialized hardware is required.
It is not cheap, since you have to lock away a big amount of money. It is like receiving interest. What do you want to say mining equipment's are cheap?
POS:
One who has large stash of the coin will get big share, making rich more richer.
The same applies to PoW:One who has large stash of the coin will get big share, making rich more richer.
One who has large stash of money will get a lot of asics (and therefore more hashrate), making rich more richer.
POS:
If coin holders want to keep somebody out of network they are able to do so by not distributing there coins outside their network.
If coin holders want to keep somebody out of network they are able to do so by not distributing there coins outside their network.
Don't Mind, I am just saying if coin creator and his group of friend decided that they will keep all the supply and do transactions between them only , then no body else will get the coin.(Hypothetically possible).
Trying to get around PoW is like trying to cheat the laws of the universe: you just can't.
Every other model has been already been refuted. Google "nothing at stake", there have been disasters before in PoS coins like NXT.
DPoS (deleted proof of stake) should bring alarms to experienced people in the field... "delegates" is the last thing you want in a decentralized system.
All these other coins like IOTA, Byteball etc.. simply aren't safe enough to trust $millions worth of anyone's wealth at.
I wish we had something cleaner than PoW, but the raw power used in the BTC network is what makes it insanely secure. The only risk is % of hashrate centralization as we know, but that is something we have to deal with.
Every other model has been already been refuted. Google "nothing at stake", there have been disasters before in PoS coins like NXT.
DPoS (deleted proof of stake) should bring alarms to experienced people in the field... "delegates" is the last thing you want in a decentralized system.
All these other coins like IOTA, Byteball etc.. simply aren't safe enough to trust $millions worth of anyone's wealth at.
I wish we had something cleaner than PoW, but the raw power used in the BTC network is what makes it insanely secure. The only risk is % of hashrate centralization as we know, but that is something we have to deal with.
Is there anyway for someone to explain this in not so technical terms, the pros and cons of both of these and what they are?
From my understanding:
POW (proof of work) isbitcoin Coin being mined through mining rigs using computers. The first computer that finds the answer distributes it to the network and it is added to the blockchain and the miner gets a reward. So the proof of work is the computer computation.
POS (proof of stake) isbitcoin Coin being mined staking that coin over an arbitrary amount of time. You hold the coin and get more of that coin, because you hold it.
Is this correct?
From my understanding:
POW (proof of work) is
POS (proof of stake) is
Is this correct?
I did some edits on your quote and your understanding is correct.
Let me come to Pros and Cons.
POW: It is costly method as you need Hardware(sometimes specialized also)and lot of electricity is used.
For Network big like Bitcoin, 51 % attack cost is too high but for some new coin where network is not so big (or do not have many miners)
51% attack can be successfully executed.
It make coin fully decentralized and anybody is free to mine.
POS: It is cheap method and no specialized hardware is required. Electricity requirement are also minimal.
One who has large stash of the coin will get big share, making rich more richer.
If coin holders want to keep somebody out of network they are able to do so by not distributing there coins outside their network.
Great writeup. I'd also just want to add POS also encourages holding
How does POS help with transactions though? With POW the miner checks to see if the transaction is legit and not a double spend. With POS is the person staking their coin, verifying the transaction?
Is there anyway for someone to explain this in not so technical terms, the pros and cons of both of these and what they are?
From my understanding:
POW (proof of work) is bitcoin being mined through mining rigs using computers. The first computer that finds the answer distributes it to the network and it is added to the blockchain and the miner gets a reward. So the proof of work is the computer computation.
POS (proof of stake) is bitcoin being mined simply by owning that coin over an arbitrary amount of time. You hold the coin and get more of that coin, because you hold it.
Is this correct?
From my understanding:
POW (proof of work) is bitcoin being mined through mining rigs using computers. The first computer that finds the answer distributes it to the network and it is added to the blockchain and the miner gets a reward. So the proof of work is the computer computation.
POS (proof of stake) is bitcoin being mined simply by owning that coin over an arbitrary amount of time. You hold the coin and get more of that coin, because you hold it.
Is this correct?
It is correct. Though incomplete.
Stake also means active participation by having a node with your wallet (holding your coins) up and running in stake vote mode.
Work is not exactly finding an answer (I would think answer is something that someone already knows). I would say PoW is finding a solution to a problem. A solution nobody knows, and a successful miner occasionally should find it and get a reward for it.
Thanks for you question though
If I am not bad I saw a interview with Vitalik Butterin talking about implementation of a Proof Of Stake ( PoS ) on Ethereum blockchain . In my opinion would be great if he could do this . We can save a lot of energy that rigs with gpus require for work.
But that guy who wants PoS need to be rich af
But that guy who wants PoS need to be rich af
I think that everything is about what you can give to the network, in POW you put you computational power, in POS you "frezze" your coins, in a strange way you are giving your thrust to the network, putting your money as a promise that you will keep the coin because you believe in the project, and is like somebody tells early in both if you are rich you become more rich... it's something inevitable
The thing is how prevent tho vulnerabilities of each protocol, and how to create better consensus protocols, remember that exists other alternatives to POW and POS
The thing is how prevent tho vulnerabilities of each protocol, and how to create better consensus protocols, remember that exists other alternatives to POW and POS
POW - Half pre mined and rest of the coins will be mined by miners by validating the Transactions.
POS - all coins pre mined before add to circulations
No, leave the scamcoins and their conspiracy theories out of the discussion.POS - all coins pre mined before add to circulations
There's no such thing as "pre-mine" that's just the early stage of a coin which only the developers and early adopters are the only miners in the network.
Scamcoins/Shitcoins usually use that as an excuse to their Pump and Dump scam: 50% Premined for future developments, etc.
One scamcoin modus for example: Developers have secretly mined the earliest blocks until they reached a sufficient amount enough to pump the price once it reach the exchanges, when the investors flock in, they will dump the remaining coins in their possession ~dirty profit.
And you've mistakenly identified POS as ERC20 Tokens.
I do not think Ethereum based tokens are mined. I used to think they are produced alongside Ethereum during mining. Actually they are automatically produced via smart contract.
POW - Half pre mined and rest of the coins will be mined by miners by validating the Transactions.
POS - all coins pre mined before add to circulations
No, leave the scamcoins and their conspiracy theories out of the discussion.POS - all coins pre mined before add to circulations
There's no such thing as "pre-mine" that's just the early stage of a coin which only the developers and early adopters are the only miners in the network.
Scamcoins/Shitcoins usually use that as an excuse to their Pump and Dump scam: 50% Premined for future developments, etc.
One scamcoin modus for example: Developers have secretly mined the earliest blocks until they reached a sufficient amount enough to pump the price once it reach the exchanges, when the investors flock in, they will dump the remaining coins in their possession ~dirty profit.
And you've mistakenly identified POS as ERC20 Tokens.
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