Power consumption of Bitcoin mining - page 5.

coinnumber

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Quote from: levvv on June 20, 2018, 10:38:35 PM

Quote from: BIRC on May 17, 2018, 11:04:23 PM

Today I read this article.....

https://www.ccn.com/bitcoins-electricity-usage-could-power-all-of-austria-in-the-future/

It says in 2018 Bitcoin mining may consume 0.5% of world’s electricity in 2018.
I think this is because the mechanism "PoW" of Bitcoin. It costs a lot of power. And it looks like this statistics only includes Bitcoin, but there are still other coins can be mined.
I am sure for some people this is not environment-friendly and this could be used as the reason to restrict Bitcoin.

Will this affect the future of Bitcoin? or will there be any new energy-saving mining method for Bitcoin or other coins? How do you think about this?

If you compare with fiat currency, cryptocurrency energy cost is still far from them.
for example if you use paper money, you need to cut trees to make paper, electricity for production machines, waste products, etc

I don't think electricity consumed by bitcoin miners will have negative effects on bitcoin future besides it's already known and for the New energy-saving mining method it will be a very good development if that will happen in the nearest future it may be faster and more reliable compare to the present methods and machines.

maikala

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Power consumption of Bitcoin mining.
In a report released Wednesday, Morgan Stanley analysts estimate that the power consumption for computer systems used to dig 'Bitcoin' is now about 0.6 percent. global bridge. This amount of electricity is more than the average use of 159 countries.

stompix

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Quote from: levvv on June 20, 2018, 10:38:35 PM

If you compare with fiat currency, cryptocurrency energy cost is still far from them.
for example if you use paper money, you need to cut trees to make paper, electricity for production machines, waste products, etc

But after you make them you can sit and relax for about 10 years.
And about transportation, an armored truck doing 100km would roughly consume as much as 5-6 S9 running a whole day.

And, paper bills like the euros are not made from wood pulp, they are made from cotton.

Quote from: Kakmakr on June 21, 2018, 12:37:51 AM

Would you consider the use of the most powerful GPUs in the world for gaming, more wasteful than running those GPUs to sustain a global currency? Those GPUs are currently being used for fun, where the hashing power could have been used more productively to sustain a few thousand global Crypto currencies. Roll Eyes

Most of the ASICs in development today are geared to energy efficiency and the mining farms are powered by renewable energy sources, like hydro/Wind/Solar energy. Wink

First, you know too well that energy efficiency will not reduce electricity consumption.
If the new miner east just 600 instead of 1200 KW the hashrate will just double as it's cheaper to mine and in the end to electricity burned will be the same.

As for the GPU, gaming part...it's all about options.
Can you experience the same gaming with burning that power? Nope.
Can you make donuts in the parking lot without burning tires and gas? Nope.
But can we have some solution to protect the chain with burning that much electricity? Maybe
And I say maybe because I'm no fan of PoS, but there might be another way to secure the chain.

Kakmakr

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Would you consider the use of the most powerful GPUs in the world for gaming, more wasteful than running those GPUs to sustain a global currency? Those GPUs are currently being used for fun, where the hashing power could have been used more productively to sustain a few thousand global Crypto currencies. Roll Eyes

Most of the ASICs in development today are geared to energy efficiency and the mining farms are powered by renewable energy sources, like hydro/Wind/Solar energy. Wink

Lexurdania

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Quote from: BIRC on May 17, 2018, 11:04:23 PM

Today I read this article.....

https://www.ccn.com/bitcoins-electricity-usage-could-power-all-of-austria-in-the-future/

It says in 2018 Bitcoin mining may consume 0.5% of world’s electricity in 2018.
I think this is because the mechanism "PoW" of Bitcoin. It costs a lot of power. And it looks like this statistics only includes Bitcoin, but there are still other coins can be mined.
I am sure for some people this is not environment-friendly and this could be used as the reason to restrict Bitcoin.

Will this affect the future of Bitcoin? or will there be any new energy-saving mining method for Bitcoin or other coins? How do you think about this?

I think that will not affecting on bitcoin future. Electricity cost on bitcoin mining is already known in years and its not affecting on the price. Some country have different electricity cost, beside that right now many renewable techonology we can use to mining bitcoin

levvv

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Quote from: BIRC on May 17, 2018, 11:04:23 PM

Today I read this article.....

https://www.ccn.com/bitcoins-electricity-usage-could-power-all-of-austria-in-the-future/

It says in 2018 Bitcoin mining may consume 0.5% of world’s electricity in 2018.
I think this is because the mechanism "PoW" of Bitcoin. It costs a lot of power. And it looks like this statistics only includes Bitcoin, but there are still other coins can be mined.
I am sure for some people this is not environment-friendly and this could be used as the reason to restrict Bitcoin.

Will this affect the future of Bitcoin? or will there be any new energy-saving mining method for Bitcoin or other coins? How do you think about this?

If you compare with fiat currency, cryptocurrency energy cost is still far from them.
for example if you use paper money, you need to cut trees to make paper, electricity for production machines, waste products, etc

stompix

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Quote from: bitmover on May 25, 2018, 12:49:31 PM

I wrote about this some time ago.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--3167859

Bitcoin mining consumes a lot of energy. But it could hasten renewable energy adoption worldwide.

Renewable energy equipment are expensive for households and the return of the initial investment takes too long. But if the excess energy produced can be directed to mining, the capital recovery can be hasten too. As it is profitable, it will lead people to buy more solar panels to mine bitcoin at their houses (They can't build a coal plant at their homes). As people are buying more solar panels, this will stimulate the research for more efficient and low cost solar panels.

And, as many said before, the banking system consumes way more energy, and even Christmas lights consumes the same amount of energy.

In order to have excess, you must install a lot of panels...a lot.
And solar panels only produce energy during the day, you will need a lot of extra batteries.
Have you run a check on how are you going to recover your investment?

These days it's a pain the ass to make ROI even with 5cents per kW , how many people worldwide do you think have the money to build a solar array to feed two or three s9 miners? Not even talking about being in an area where it's worth putting up solar panels.

You make it sound like it's s simple thing of putting up some panels and start making money...
No, it's not!!!

freesia_pnp888

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Mining is not bad, however like you said, it's power consuming which leading to illegal mining, and what's next? this happened: https://btcmanager.com/japanese-police-arrest-16-persons-for-illegally-mining-cryptocurrency/ . i don't it's a nice ending for anyone, but since you risk everything for it, it's debt you should pay, sincerely. but to mine the rest of bitcoin in the short future, these cases will be more, not less.

groundcontrol67

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I am sure that in time the amount of energy used for mining in bitcoin will somehow effect governements decisions towards it. However, there has to be a way to help save that energy so that miners can make their money while using the tools required to do so. Just like how engineers are inventing ways for the mass production of cars to be more environmentally friendly.

tonysitaly

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The future of bitcoin mining may be more environmentally friendly, but I don't think the current bitcoin mining industry is wasting a lot of electricity, and a lot of power resources are idle power in some remote areas.

acheampong64

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It is true though but if a time comes and the utilization of energy by Bitcoin/cryptocurrency mining increases, a solution shall surely arise. Though the concern is gradually rising, a new revolution will come as a panacea

masudginanjar

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Quote from: butka on May 18, 2018, 12:15:04 AM

If you take the energy that is being used (wasted) today by the highly inefficient banking system and compare it to the energy
consumed during the process of mining bitcoins, you will quickly find out that the energy spent in the mining process is not that large.
So I think articles like the one you've linked are misleading. Before blaming Bitcoin, the journalist should start by analyzing the current energy
costs in the highly bloated financial sector (which is something we accept as normal, but it is far from normal).

really a friend, a lot of Banks in my country who expend the electricity for its operational activities, such as:

1. use the AC in every Bank room.
2. use electricity for computer server Bank and its client.
3. use of printing machine for transaction paper.
4. ATM electricity usage in some spots.

so it can be said that Bitcoin mining is nothing more than the electricity used by the Bank. and I am sure it is.

bitmover

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bitcoindata.science

I wrote about this some time ago.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--3167859

Bitcoin mining consumes a lot of energy. But it could hasten renewable energy adoption worldwide.

Renewable energy equipment are expensive for households and the return of the initial investment takes too long. But if the excess energy produced can be directed to mining, the capital recovery can be hasten too. As it is profitable, it will lead people to buy more solar panels to mine bitcoin at their houses (They can't build a coal plant at their homes). As people are buying more solar panels, this will stimulate the research for more efficient and low cost solar panels.

And, as many said before, the banking system consumes way more energy, and even Christmas lights consumes the same amount of energy.

Cordenne

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Quote from: BIRC on May 17, 2018, 11:04:23 PM

Today I read this article.....

https://www.ccn.com/bitcoins-electricity-usage-could-power-all-of-austria-in-the-future/

It says in 2018 Bitcoin mining may consume 0.5% of world’s electricity in 2018.
I think this is because the mechanism "PoW" of Bitcoin. It costs a lot of power. And it looks like this statistics only includes Bitcoin, but there are still other coins can be mined.
I am sure for some people this is not environment-friendly and this could be used as the reason to restrict Bitcoin.

Will this affect the future of Bitcoin? or will there be any new energy-saving mining method for Bitcoin or other coins? How do you think about this?

Some claim that a proof-of-stake algorithm could prove to be more ecologically sound. Innovations like the Lightning Network could also scale this problem down. Sustainable energy sources such as hydroelectric power has Chinese mines drawing cheap surplus energy from hydroelectric dams. Solar powered mining farms are also a more environmentally friendly approach to the problems posed.

israfil

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Although I have a little bit of my ideas about this new thing, I will say something from my mind, electricity is needed to use Bitcoin mines, but by transaction fees. Mine machines are still needed to ensure their transaction

stompix

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Quote from: krishnapramod on May 18, 2018, 04:31:38 AM

Rough estimates, Bitcoin adoption is still around 1%, comparing the current energy consumption of Bitcoin with that of global banking system doesn't make much sense and if I go by the figures in this article, 28.67 Twh with around 1% adoption and as adoption increases, I don't think it would be wrong to assume that with about 10 to 15% adoption, the Bitcoin energy consumption would be more than that of the global banking system.

Bitcoin does have an energy efficiency problem. Don't know how effective a solution LN would be, but as Andreas Antonopoulos points out in a YouTube video, the solution lies in a significant growth in renewable/alternative energy sector/establishing mining operations on locations with surplus energy.

Comparing usage is going to turn pretty ugly for BTC.
You are saying "adoption" but that can't be really measured, what if we switch to usage?

So we have 25Twh for 200k daily transactions via BTC and 100Twh for an estimate of 2 billions transactions for the banking sector.
Of course we're excluding LN, the fact that one transaction can mean 100 poeple are getting payed but still...
In terms on energy consumption the banks win it right now by 500-1000 times.

Quote from: butka on May 18, 2018, 04:47:55 AM

But this is under the assumption that Bitcoin's power consumption will grow linearly with adoption. I wonder why that would be the case? Isn't the current mining power enough to handle 10 or 15 times the number of users?

Mining power has nothing to do with number of users.
The "problem" is the reward gained by mining each block, if the reward is 100$ people will spend 90$ on electricity and take 10$ profit, if BTC skyrockets to 100 000$, then we're going to have a daily reward of 180 millions $ !!! and miners might consume 150 millions worth of energy daily and get the rest in profits.
And beyond that number things get really really scary.

krishnapramod

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Quote from: butka on May 18, 2018, 04:47:55 AM

Quote from: krishnapramod on May 18, 2018, 04:31:38 AM

Rough estimates, Bitcoin adoption is still around 1%, comparing the current energy consumption of Bitcoin with that of global banking system doesn't make much sense and if I go by the figures in this article, 28.67 Twh with around 1% adoption and as adoption increases, I don't think it would be wrong to assume that with about 10 to 15% adoption, the Bitcoin energy consumption would be more than that of the global banking system.

But this is under the assumption that Bitcoin's power consumption will grow linearly with adoption. I wonder why that would be the case? Isn't the current mining power enough to handle 10 or 15 times the number of users?

There is a correlation between Bitcoin price and hash rate. Even though Bitcoin price is around $8000 now the hash rate hasn't dropped, it is same or a bit more than what it was when Bitcoin was around $20000. Declining price/hashrate correlation is a bit complex, resistance level. But when you assume that the rate of adoption is going to increase by 10 or 15 times, then definitely the price would increase and here there is no complexity, direct correlation, hashrate following price, the higher the price in USD, miners who stopped mining because it was unprofitable would again deploy their ASICs/new miners, more energy consumption.

Let's assume hashrate, difficulty, blocksize are internal factors, fixed and correlating, price and adoption are external factors then I guess the current mining power is enough to handle 10 or 15 times the number of users. The internal factors adjust to changes in Bitcoin price/rate of adoption. From the security perspective, adoption/increase in network usage would lead to an increase in hashrate to secure the network.

European Central Bank

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Quote from: BIRC on May 17, 2018, 11:04:23 PM

or will there be any new energy-saving mining method for Bitcoin or other coins? How do you think about this?

the only energy saving will be less mining competition and it's hard to say whether that'll happen in our lifetimes.

hopefully more miners will head to places like iceland where the power is geothermal and basically limitless.

i don't care what anyone else says, i think it is a crazy waste of resources. the number of actual users is maybe 0.1-0.5% of banking and gold users.

dado7

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Quote from: butka on May 18, 2018, 12:15:04 AM

If you take the energy that is being used (wasted) today by the highly inefficient banking system and compare it to the energy
consumed during the process of mining bitcoins, you will quickly find out that the energy spent in the mining process is not that large.
So I think articles like the one you've linked are misleading. Before blaming Bitcoin, the journalist should start by analyzing the current energy
costs in the highly bloated financial sector (which is something we accept as normal, but it is far from normal).

Thank you butka, a fantastic rational reasoning. FUD is so easy to make because people rarely use reason when thinking about what they read.
If someone said that the Earth was plain, a lot of people would start believing it... oh wait, someone did, and - yes they did.

Samarkand

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Quote from: BIRC on May 17, 2018, 11:04:23 PM

...
I think this is because the mechanism "PoW" of Bitcoin. It costs a lot of power. And it looks like this statistics only includes Bitcoin, but there are still other coins can be mined.
I am sure for some people this is not environment-friendly and this could be used as the reason to restrict Bitcoin.
...

I´d like to direct you to this thread where I outlined a few reasons why the
waste of energy argument against Bitcoin is stupid:

Debunking the waste of energy argument against Bitcoin

Other users added their own arguments as well and the whole thread is definitely worth a read!

From the article that you linked:

Quote

Sometimes the best information we’ve got is really shaky eyewitness accounts. That’s the stuff we have to work with.

If this is indicative of the quality of the data that de Vries used for his analysis
his calculations are completely useless and not to be trusted. Besides, he erroneously believes
that large amounts of desktop computers are still used for Bitcoin mining when in reality
it is 100 % ASICs as of today, because ASICs are simply too much ahead in terms of computing
power for this specific task (all botnets that mine cryptocurrencies on the affected computers
mine other coins (e.g. Monero) and not Bitcoin where ASICs are ubiquitous).

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