Topic: Preventing Asic mining [fork] after next halving would solve a lot of problems. - page 2. (Read 3526 times)

PoW concept itself is a doomed concept.

The only way to avoid this expense, is to fade out PoW mining altogether, and change to a PoS system.

Which comes with its own set of problems and is not ready to be a real replacement for PoW as it is implemented now in several coins. Until PoS is improved, a PoW/S combination that lowers the mining expense while keeping a similar level of security would be beneficial though.

Quote from: yumei on October 05, 2014, 10:22:04 PM
Quote
ASIC is not the problem, GPU mining would have ended up exactly the same given enough time. Mega GPU mining farms will inevitable rise.

PoW concept itself is a doomed concept.

This is exactly what I am not thinking! Just imagine GPU mining farms, even if their are farms, you can let your servers or home computer mine while using them for something else as well. You can buy GPU hardware anywhere and there is no risk that nvidia mine thereself, there is no monopol. I bet we didn´t have the low prices we have right now with GPU mining only.

You don't get it, the specific algorithm of PoW mining doesn't matter at all, there will always be an expense associated with it, and it can not cheap in order to secure the network. It doesn't matter whether it's ASIC mining or GPU mining, hundreds of millions of dollars must be spent on PoW mining every year, in order to secure the network. We would have the exact same low price right now, if we were GPU mining, the expense does not change.

The only way to avoid this expense, is to fade out PoW mining altogether, and change to a PoS system.

The only way to avoid this expense, is to fade out PoW mining altogether, and change to a PoS system.

This is exactly what I am not thinking! Just imagine GPU mining farms, even if their are farms, you can let your servers or home computer mine while using them for something else as well. You can buy GPU hardware anywhere and there is no risk that nvidia mine thereself, there is no monopol. I bet we didn´t have the low prices we have right now with GPU mining only.

Quote from: yumei on October 05, 2014, 10:30:49 PM
Isn´t it theoretically possible to build a algorithm which makes actual asic miners worthless.

No.

An ASIC is just a computer. It's more specialized than a general-purpose computer, but in the end it's still just a computer.

Any algorithm that can be implemented in a general purpose computer can be implemented in an ASIC, there's nothing "magical" going on.

A relatively simple algorithm, like SHA-256, can be implemented in a general-purpose computer, or in an ASIC, with relatively little cost. This makes mining relatively accessible (though not necessarily profitable) to everyone.

A more complicated algorithm would take more effort to implement in a general-purpose computer, and likewise more effort to implement in an ASIC. In the beginning, this makes mining more accessible to those with general-purpose computers. If there's enough demand (if the coin in question becomes popular enough), then eventually the algorithm will be implemented in an ASIC, but due to it's complexity it will be accessible to fewer people.

In other words, the more complex the coin, the larger the start-up costs, and the less accessible mining becomes. This is exactly the opposite of what I assume is your goal.Quote from: yumei on October 05, 2014, 10:30:49 PM
Isn´t it theoretically possible to build a algorithm which makes actual asic miners worthless.

No.

An ASIC is just a computer. It's more specialized than a general-purpose computer, but in the end it's still just a computer.

Any algorithm that can be implemented in a general purpose computer can be implemented in an ASIC, there's nothing "magical" going on.

A relatively simple algorithm, like SHA-256, can be implemented in a general-purpose computer, or in an ASIC, with relatively little cost. This makes mining relatively accessible (though not necessarily profitable) to everyone.

A more complicated algorithm would take more effort to implement in a general-purpose computer, and likewise more effort to implement in an ASIC. In the beginning, this makes mining more accessible to those with general-purpose computers. If there's enough demand (if the coin in question becomes popular enough), then eventually the algorithm will be implemented in an ASIC, but due to it's complexity it will be accessible to fewer people.

In other words, the more complex the coin, the larger the start-up costs, and the less accessible mining becomes. This is exactly the opposite of what I assume is your goal.

Quote from: yumei on October 05, 2014, 02:37:33 PM
Satoshi for sure never planned asic mining. 99% of the bitcoin community would benefit when asic mining is prohibited.

Quote from: satoshi on July 29, 2010, 02:00:38 AM
The current system where every user is a network node is not the intended configuration for large scale.  That would be like every Usenet user runs their own NNTP server.  The design supports letting users just be users.  The more burden it is to run a node, the fewer nodes there will be.  Those few nodes will be big server farms.  The rest will be client nodes that only do transactions and don't generate.

While not explicitly stating asics, he did describe very well the move to large farms doing all the mining, and asics are just a natural evolution all of us anticipated.

ASIC is not the problem, GPU mining would have ended up exactly the same given enough time. Mega GPU mining farms will inevitable rise.

Satoshi for sure never planned asic mining. 99% of the bitcoin community would benefit when asic mining is prohibited.

The current system where every user is a network node is not the intended configuration for large scale.  That would be like every Usenet user runs their own NNTP server.  The design supports letting users just be users.  The more burden it is to run a node, the fewer nodes there will be.  Those few nodes will be big server farms.  The rest will be client nodes that only do transactions and don't generate.

Is there a chance to bring back mining to the normal user now?
(Yes, very generic question, hope to have several points of view on that topic)

DannyHamilton has gone above and beyond the call of duty for a number of years now, providing detailed, thoughtful, consistently correct advice on this forum. He has a wide understanding of Bitcoin's operation and explains things in great detail, often even to users who are clearly unwilling to invest a fraction of the time reading his posts that he spends writing them. There is an overwhelming amount of repetitive and ill-advised material on this board and it handling it would be far more hopeless without him.

It is easy to become frustrated in such a situation, and also difficult to communicate tone through a text-based medium, so I hope you will give him the benefit of the doubt in future. And do not call him ignorant. That is not only untrue, but uncivil conduct. This sort of behaviour is why more knowledgable people won't take the time to participate on this board, and is detrimental to everyone.

Isn´t it theoretically possible to build a algorithm which makes actual asic miners worthless.

ASIC is not the problem, GPU mining would have ended up exactly the same given enough time. Mega GPU mining farms will inevitable rise.

PoW concept itself is a doomed concept.

DannyHamilton has gone above and beyond the call of duty for a number of years now, providing detailed, thoughtful, consistently correct advice on this forum. He has a wide understanding of Bitcoin's operation and explains things in great detail, often even to users who are clearly unwilling to invest a fraction of the time reading his posts that he spends writing them.

PoW concept itself is a doomed concept.

Preventing Asic mining after next halving would solve a lot of problems.

Actually we are in a phase of centralising the bitcoin network, from individuals to companies belonging big asic farms.

Satoshi for sure never planned asic mining. 99% of the bitcoin community would benefit when asic mining is prohibited.

Without asic mining we would never have such a bump and dump scenario we have actually. Big asic farm holder selling their bitcoins to be able to pay the electrician and to cut out competition due low efficiency of mining.

Seems like they have at least the same understanding about the words I was using before and not like the ignorant guy DannyHamilton.