Proactive fighting with spammers. Doing it the right way

Lauda

legendary

Activity: 2674

Merit: 2965

Terminated.

Quote from: deisik on November 09, 2016, 05:12:37 AM

The throne is never empty

Now that the Bitmixer signature campaign is handled appropriately (I hope Lauda doesn't heavily abuse her current position as the campaign's manager, lol),

Well, I'll try not to be *too strict*. Cheesy

The campaign is finally somewhat settling with 50-60 users that are at least decent (IMO).

Quote from: deisik on November 09, 2016, 05:12:37 AM

Hail the new guardians of spam, the Byteball Signature Campaign, the most recent sanctuary and retreat for shit posters. As an aside, it looks like a lot of kicked-out Bitmixer members voted in the thread recently, despite the obvious fact that the proper management of signature campaigns has greatly helped to reduce the amount of spam on the forum

I have just sent them a PM. If they do not take action/respond, then the community should take action for them. Our measures are only effective if most of the managers are willing to participate.

deisik

legendary

Activity: 3430

Merit: 1280

English ⬄ Russian Translation Services

The throne is never empty

Now that the Bitmixer signature campaign is handled appropriately (I hope Lauda doesn't heavily abuse her current position as the campaign's manager, lol), there is a new kid on the block. Hail the new guardians of spam, the Byteball Signature Campaign, the most recent sanctuary and retreat for shit posters. As an aside, it looks like a lot of kicked-out Bitmixer members voted in the thread recently, despite the obvious fact that the proper management of signature campaigns has greatly helped to reduce the amount of spam on the forum

botany

legendary

Activity: 1582

Merit: 1064

Quote from: Lauda on October 22, 2016, 02:10:31 PM

Quote from: rizzlarolla on October 22, 2016, 02:06:16 PM

Quote from: LoyceV on October 22, 2016, 02:00:07 PM

I would suggest a Rank: "Banned". One word, right under the username. It can even be a warning for other people.

Excellent.

This may actually be a good idea. I'll check with theymos to see what he thinks.

This has actually been suggested before,
It was shot down by badbear.

Quote from: redsn0w on December 19, 2014, 02:51:54 AM

I think there is only this log :

https://bitcointalk.org/modlog.php , but as you told only the last ~24h of action will appear in that log. Maybe when an user is banned I think it easy to theymos add under the "rank coins" a little word: "Banned" ,

What do you think ?

deisik

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English ⬄ Russian Translation Services

Quote from: Lauda on October 22, 2016, 02:17:42 AM

Quote from: Wendigo on October 22, 2016, 02:12:15 AM

Account sales can't be banned because they can be facilitated off this forum and you may never know what deal has gone through and where. How can you control something that doesn't happen within the reach of the forum??

No, you are wrong. Account sales can't be stopped, but they can be made bannable. If we make this a punishable offense, this introduces a huge risk to both parties involved in such trades. I'm pretty sure that this would have a decent effect on this though.

What's wrong with account sales as such, and how are they particularly different from any other sales? Of course, sold accounts can be used for something considered illicit (for example, spamming) or just outright wrongful (for example, scamming). But, on the other hand, Bitcoin is also massively used for illegal activities, though I don't see many people here calling for banning Bitcoin sales

Quote from: Wendigo on October 22, 2016, 02:12:15 AM

How can you control something that doesn't happen within the reach of the forum??

One should never forbid what one lacks the power to prevent

rizzlarolla

hero member

Activity: 812

Merit: 1001

Quote from: Lauda on October 22, 2016, 02:40:50 AM

I think that having one or two alts is fine, and kind-of-encouraged in a free speech environment (e.g. a case where stating something may receive 'negative feedback' on your main account). The problem is the people account farming (we're talking about tens to hundreds of accounts).

First time i've seen any staff/mod/admin say that farming "hundreds of accounts" by 1 farmer (i read) is a "problem"
(i always said on my thread that i was not hunting anyone with 2 or 3 accounts - only organised farmers)
Is this "problem" also being addressed somehow in this clean-up? Advertiser-manager-spammer-farmer.
I have shown how easy they are to id, with 100% accuracy - no complaints/dispute from any farmed account listed yet!

(or please expand in my thread with some detail's on this, so as not to derail here with farming details. I'll be nice as poss, i'm genuinely interested Cheesy

)

mindrust

legendary

Activity: 3234

Merit: 2420

Account farming reminds me democracy.

In a democratic country, a professor and a homeless dude have the same amount of votes. While a professor reproduces one or two children, an uneducated street scum reproduces like a rabbit without a brain.

Does that remind you something?

It is the same thing which happens in Europe as well as in this forum. This is a war which we can't win. Sad

(unless we find our own Trump and build a wall

)

Lauda

legendary

Activity: 2674

Merit: 2965

Terminated.

Quote from: rizzlarolla on October 22, 2016, 02:06:16 PM

Quote from: Lauda on October 22, 2016, 01:55:18 PM

It is trivial for moderators to check whether someone is banned or not. I just have to take a look at their profile.

But a real pain in the butt for us.

I'm very well aware of that.

Quote from: rizzlarolla on October 22, 2016, 02:06:16 PM

Quote from: LoyceV on October 22, 2016, 02:00:07 PM

I would suggest a Rank: "Banned". One word, right under the username. It can even be a warning for other people.

Excellent.

This may actually be a good idea. I'll check with theymos to see what he thinks.

Quote from: rizzlarolla on October 22, 2016, 02:06:16 PM

I was particularly wondering if us members would have ways of detecting sold accounts.
My example way seems good. Any other ways?

That example is really an obvious one if you look at the second page of last posts. I'm not aware of other methods, maybe someone else has a suggestion or two.

utkarshm

full member

Activity: 154

Merit: 100

Good to see some action being taken on bitmixer signature campaigns spammers and many of them being get banned becuase of posting shit all around the forum and with their alts as well.
I think something like that should be done with yobit signature campaign spammers as well because i think there are many more spammers in their campaigns,i think many members are having 10-20 alts in that campaign.

rizzlarolla

hero member

Activity: 812

Merit: 1001

Quote from: Lauda on October 22, 2016, 01:55:18 PM

It is trivial for moderators to check whether someone is banned or not. I just have to take a look at their profile.

But a real pain in the butt for us.

Quote from: LoyceV on October 22, 2016, 02:00:07 PM

I would suggest a Rank: "Banned". One word, right under the username. It can even be a warning for other people.

Excellent.

Quote from: Lauda on October 22, 2016, 01:55:18 PM

Quote from: rizzlarolla on October 22, 2016, 01:51:24 PM

Would this be a ban? Is this 1 way that sold accounts would be recognised?
Are there other ways sold accounts could be recognised?

I would permanently ban this one as it likely correlates with many other 1 line spammers that used to be in Bitmixer. I do not have the tools/access to recognize sold accounts.

I was particularly wondering if us members would have ways of detecting sold accounts.
My example way seems good. Any other ways?

LoyceV

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Activity: 3290

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Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021

Quote from: Lauda on October 22, 2016, 01:33:40 PM

There is really almost no valid reason for one to sell their account here. Even if they were desperate for money, then the best thing to do would be to put it in as collateral for a loan.

The account only has value as collateral if it can be sold. And if that's the "almost no valid reason" you mean, it could also be abused to sell an account: take a fake loan, default the loan, sell the account.

Quote

I'm not sure about that, nor what other moderators/administrators think. Currently, banned users get stripped of their signature and other profile information (implemented sometime in 2016 IIRC).

I would suggest a Rank: "Banned". One word, right under the username. It can even be a warning for other people.

Lauda

legendary

Activity: 2674

Merit: 2965

Terminated.

Quote from: rizzlarolla on October 22, 2016, 01:51:24 PM

Can you see how it would be helpful to us members? If so, could you try to find out if possible please.

It is trivial for moderators to check whether someone is banned or not. I just have to take a look at their profile. I'm not sure if we should do it though, but in this clear case the member is not banned.

Quote from: rizzlarolla on October 22, 2016, 01:51:24 PM

Look at RealMalatesta's account. https://bitcointalksearch.org/user/realmalatesta-321061

RealMalatesta has been a good member here for years. Now sold or hacked, and spam posting.
(his last real post June 20, his first spam post under new ownership October 20)

Yes, I think I've reported this one in the cleanup yesterday.

Quote from: rizzlarolla on October 22, 2016, 01:51:24 PM

Would this be a ban? Is this 1 way that sold accounts would be recognised?
Are there other ways sold accounts could be recognised?

I would permanently ban this one as it likely correlates with many other 1 line spammers that used to be in Bitmixer. I do not have the tools/access to recognize sold accounts.

rizzlarolla

hero member

Activity: 812

Merit: 1001

Quote from: Lauda on October 22, 2016, 01:33:40 PM

Quote from: rizzlarolla on October 22, 2016, 01:29:19 PM

It is hard, or a waste of time, to investigate/report/watch when we do not know if an account is already banned.
Maybe mark their profile page? This should be easy to achieve?

I'm not sure about that, nor what other moderators/administrators think. Currently, banned users get stripped of their signature and other profile information (implemented sometime in 2016 IIRC).

Can you see how it would be helpful to us members? If so, could you try to find out if possible please.

-----

Look at RealMalatesta's account. https://bitcointalksearch.org/user/realmalatesta-321061

RealMalatesta has been a good member here for years. Now sold or hacked, and spam posting.
(his last real post June 20, his first spam post under new ownership October 20)

Would this be a ban? Is this 1 way that sold accounts would be recognised?
Are there other ways sold accounts could be recognised?

Lauda

legendary

Activity: 2674

Merit: 2965

Terminated.

Quote from: rizzlarolla on October 22, 2016, 01:29:19 PM

I all for it Lauda.

I think members should also be able to see who is and is not banned, past, present and future.

There is really almost no valid reason for one to sell their account here. Even if they were desperate for money, then the best thing to do would be to put it in as collateral for a loan.

Quote from: rizzlarolla on October 22, 2016, 01:29:19 PM

It is hard, or a waste of time, to investigate/report/watch when we do not know if an account is already banned.
Maybe mark their profile page? This should be easy to achieve?

I'm not sure about that, nor what other moderators/administrators think. Currently, banned users get stripped of their signature and other profile information (implemented sometime in 2016 IIRC).

rizzlarolla

hero member

Activity: 812

Merit: 1001

Quote from: Lauda on October 22, 2016, 02:40:50 AM

As I said, the primary thing about the idea is the added risk of a permanent ban (both sides).

Update: All of those have been banned yesterday already.

I all for it Lauda.

I think members should also be able to see who is and is not banned, past, present and future.
It is hard, or a waste of time, to investigate/report/watch when we do not know if an account is already banned.

Maybe mark their profile page? This should be easy to achieve?

richardsNY

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Quote from: Lauda on October 22, 2016, 01:40:50 AM

The important thing is that: You realize that it is your fault. You want to improve. You put in effort into 2. There are likely going to be people attacking me from heavy sides due to this, and those are the people that have really deserved to be banned forever. This is why I'll run a separation of the blacklist into people that are banned forever and those that may get un-banned if significant improvement is shown.

Yup, it's difficult to blame someone else as I am responsible for my own post quality. That's why I will put more effort and thought in my posts. People that get mad for being kicked out should look at their post history. If they then still don't realize why they are kicked out, then they never will.

gentlemand

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Welt Am Draht

Quote from: botany on October 22, 2016, 02:39:48 AM

They can start by having a look at this thread.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitmixer-spammers-1378965
A ton of posters who can be removed straight away.

My beautiful thread was turned into smoking ruins. It was a genuine question. My curiosity wasn't particularly sated by the quality of the answers.

LoyceV

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Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021

Quote from: 1Referee on October 21, 2016, 05:57:44 PM

Looks like Lauda has been going strong with cleaning up the Bitmixer campaign. If that means that I get banned as well, then it is what it is. But it's a good effort to keep the forum clean.

I like this plot twist! Although it struck me as dubious at first, offering a job to a Staff-member after messages regarding spam, it actually is a good solution. This way Staff gets paid to clean up instead of doing it for free, and the polluter pays.

Quote from: Lauda on October 22, 2016, 01:40:50 AM

I'd like to hear what people think about making account sales banned?

If Paypal can't stop it, I have no illusions thinking Bitcointalk can stop it. Email addresses and IPs can change, which makes it very hard to detect a sale. Even if 2 accounts were originally created from the same IP, and one of them moves to a different IP, it could have been 2 different people, for example in a student house.
In my opinion, the only thing Bitcointalk can really do, is ban the account-for-sale-threads on this site, after which sales continue on other forums.

Quote from: Lauda on October 22, 2016, 03:22:19 AM

Well, some argue that you can't halt account sales completely (which is a straw-man) and I'm sure that the staff is well aware of this.

While reading on, you say exactly what I just typed

Banning sales will most likely limit it, but botany has a point too pointing at the "false sense of security" it can give. Just like obvious scam threads aren't deleted.

1Referee

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Quote from: botany on October 22, 2016, 03:24:21 AM

Quote from: 1Referee on October 22, 2016, 03:09:16 AM

Shouldn't be disallowing account sales to happen in this forum something where all staff members directly would agree on? As it didn't happen yet, is that because of the fact that there is some sort of resistance within the staff, or are you guys still looking for a way to incorporate it in the right way? I might be wrong of course, but enforcing such policy shouldn't be that much of a difficulty.

You are wrong. The reason that account sales are not banned is that it is not possible to enforce.
Trading of accounts would just move outside the forum.

I guess you didn't notice that I was talking about enforcing a ban policy purely focused on this forum, and not about what happens outside this forum. I know that it's not possible to hunt down account sellers operating outside the forum. That's something we should not be focusing at as that is something out of everyone's reach here.

botany

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Quote from: 1Referee on October 22, 2016, 03:09:16 AM

Shouldn't be disallowing account sales to happen in this forum something where all staff members directly would agree on? As it didn't happen yet, is that because of the fact that there is some sort of resistance within the staff, or are you guys still looking for a way to incorporate it in the right way? I might be wrong of course, but enforcing such policy shouldn't be that much of a difficulty.

You are wrong. The reason that account sales are not banned is that it is not possible to enforce.
Trading of accounts would just move outside the forum.

Edit: FAQ

Quote from: mprep on July 21, 2014, 01:27:51 PM

Q: I saw a guy selling Bitcointalk accounts. Why is that allowed?
A: Since we can't effectively prevent these sales (proxies, TOR, sales in other forums), we don't because otherwise we would be giving the users a false sense of security.

Lauda

legendary

Activity: 2674

Merit: 2965

Terminated.

Quote from: buxlover on October 22, 2016, 02:53:03 AM

That lead to worst situation like someone can scam with main account and leave the account after negative feedback. just create an alt to do the same or otherwise

No. I'm telling you what the situation is now, and what may be acceptable. Having an alt account just to discuss something is fine in my view (obviously if you don't abuse it for any other purposes).

Quote from: buxlover on October 22, 2016, 02:53:03 AM

But the forum works that way in general higher activity rank members are more reputable and newbies are least. don't you agree this is the mindset of most forum members and visitors

No, that's not how the forum works. You don't get to blame the forum because the crowd isn't properly acquainted with how it works.

Quote from: 1Referee on October 22, 2016, 03:09:16 AM

Shouldn't be disallowing account sales to happen in this forum something where all staff members directly would agree on? As it didn't happen yet, is that because of the fact that there is some sort of resistance within the staff, or are you guys still looking for a way to incorporate it in the right way? I might be wrong of course, but enforcing such policy shouldn't be that much of a difficulty.

Well, some argue that you can't halt account sales completely (which is a straw-man) and I'm sure that the staff is well aware of this. Others argue that the prices of accounts will go up which would encourage more farming, and so on. Generally speaking, I do believe that it would take a decent hit on the spammers market. Keep in mind that: If you get busted for trading even once, you'd get permanently banned (along with any accounts that you own). If that isn't considered a high risk/low profit trade, then I don't know what is.

Topic: Proactive fighting with spammers. Doing it the right way (Read 7035 times)