Profit for one investor means loss to the other one? - page 2.

TheUltraElite

legendary

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So anyway, I applied as a merit source :)

Quote from: ?? on ??

sombody has to pay fot ur profit i guess

Ironically this is correct. Somebody has to pay - even if it seems pretty cruel. When a new investors enters crypto market they buy coins at some price while someone else does sell it. So there is always the transfer of funds from one person to another in trading.

Though this is not how traders make money. They rely on the market volatility and how much FUD is influencing the market.

Quote from: fredemar12 on February 09, 2018, 05:58:14 AM

No, not always so. Of course, it often turns out like this, but everyone has the right to decide when to buy and when to sell. If you look at the example, then it is not obliged to sell when the price reached $ 6000 in January 2018

That is true. But they "will" sell at some time or the other. Nobody forces the other to sell or buy but they are humans and they need cash at hand at often times - which is when they might sell or sometime later on.

rampage101

member

Activity: 182

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Quote from: virendarnagpal on February 08, 2018, 10:40:13 PM

Whether it is true or not that in markets like Bitcoin (crypto) ; one person gains only when the other losses some thing. Suppose one person bought one Bitcoin for $5000 in January 2017 and sells in June 2017 for suppose $10000 he gains $5000 by selling. Now the purchaser in June 2017 @ $10000 sells it for $6000 in January 2018 and as a result he losses $4000. So it is clear from the example that the profit of seller in June which was $5000 includes the loss suffered by the person who bought it in June 2017 and sold in January 2018.
If there are some other reasons for this profit / loss factor, I request other members to please share their knowledge with the platform because my opinion may be on the basis of partial truth and there may be other factors responsible too.

No, it's not true. Read on the Internet what is capitalization and how the market works. This naive theory can be turned against those who earn on stock exchanges too. Since if you earned from $ 100 a few thousand, at this time another person, can earn hundreds of times more. Wink

Memenya

member

Activity: 238

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Quote from: mk4 on February 08, 2018, 10:46:51 PM

The other person not necessarily ends up with a loss. What if the purchaser in June 2017 doesn't sell it for $6000, and instead waits for the future increase instead like $12,000 for instance, so he still wins $2000 in the end. There's more to that in the markets, and it's much much more complicated (I think). But yea, whether we like it or not they're gonna be losers in the markets. There's always going to be those people who FOMOs in and panic sells out.

P.S. Correct me if I'm wrong

You are right, we will not gonna loss if we dont sell our coin for cheaper price. Holding will help us to recover.
I have other point, i know its true that the winner is getting money from losser trader but if the price downfall and they sell the coin cheaper. But if the price always remain up, nobody loss. They loss if the market down.

Mpamaegbu

legendary

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Once a man, twice a child!

Quote from: mk4 on February 08, 2018, 10:46:51 PM

The other person not necessarily ends up with a loss. What if the purchaser in June 2017 doesn't sell it for $6000, and instead waits for the future increase instead like $12,000 for instance, so he still wins $2000 in the end. There's more to that in the markets, and it's much much more complicated (I think). But yea, whether we like it or not they're gonna be losers in the markets. There's always going to be those people who FOMOs in and panic sells out.

P.S. Correct me if I'm wrong

Ok, let us take it away from Bitcoin and into forex trading for instance. How would you explain what happens each time someone closes a trade in profit? Don't you realize that someone else loses? Of course, that's how it works. I once bought regalcoin at $62 not knowing it was at the overbought. Now regalcoin is shitcoin at $0.30+ or so. At the time I bought, someone sold and took profit, right? You see, that someone made profit but I lost out. That's the way it works.

VitKoyn

full member

Activity: 490

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Quote from: virendarnagpal on February 08, 2018, 10:40:13 PM

Whether it is true or not that in markets like Bitcoin (crypto) ; one person gains only when the other losses some thing. Suppose one person bought one Bitcoin for $5000 in January 2017 and sells in June 2017 for suppose $10000 he gains $5000 by selling. Now the purchaser in June 2017 @ $10000 sells it for $6000 in January 2018 and as a result he losses $4000. So it is clear from the example that the profit of seller in June which was $5000 includes the loss suffered by the person who bought it in June 2017 and sold in January 2018.
If there are some other reasons for this profit / loss factor, I request other members to please share their knowledge with the platform because my opinion may be on the basis of partial truth and there may be other factors responsible too.

This is somewhat true but not always and here's why. What if the person who bought Bitcoin at the price of $10000 before the price goes down to $6000 did not sell his/her Bitcoin and just decided to hold it because he/she believe that the price will go up soon? he/she probably lose almost half of his capital but what if the price goes up again? finally he/she gets a profit. And you will not lose a lot if you are actively checking the price and can get out early when the price goes down. Bitcoin is not originally designed to be an investment or asset but due to its volatility is high and only supply and demand determines its price, people are taking advantage of it.

fredemar12

member

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No, not always so. Of course, it often turns out like this, but everyone has the right to decide when to buy and when to sell. If you look at the example, then it is not obliged to sell when the price reached $ 6000 in January 2018

Ramananms

newbie

Activity: 2

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Yes it is true one month before how much price on bitcoin but now decrease bitcoin price and you can think and invest

12tribes

member

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The market is a profit and loss platform. One losses and another gains. It all matters what you know, the move you make and the ability to push your way. So one investor gains and another looses.

bug.lady

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Quote from: hase0278 on February 09, 2018, 05:04:14 AM

Quote from: virendarnagpal on February 08, 2018, 10:40:13 PM

Whether it is true or not that in markets like Bitcoin (crypto) ; one person gains only when the other losses some thing. Suppose one person bought one Bitcoin for $5000 in January 2017 and sells in June 2017 for suppose $10000 he gains $5000 by selling. Now the purchaser in June 2017 @ $10000 sells it for $6000 in January 2018 and as a result he losses $4000. So it is clear from the example that the profit of seller in June which was $5000 includes the loss suffered by the person who bought it in June 2017 and sold in January 2018.
If there are some other reasons for this profit / loss factor, I request other members to please share their knowledge with the platform because my opinion may be on the basis of partial truth and there may be other factors responsible too.

You are partially right but those who bought what someone sold can still profit in the future. The full truth is that, the Bitcoin is being passed from one user to another using a process called trading, which have two categories, the buy and selling. Bitcoin is being passed from the seller to the buyer and then the buyer later on can become the seller to pass it on to another person. The buyer can profit if he/she can sell it at a higher price.

Of course they can profit in the future, but only provided there is a an influx of fresh money into the system. At some point in the future there is no more people to sell to, you are the last holder of bitcoin and you must sell cheaper than you bought or you will not sell at all. At that point in the future bitcoin may be 20k or 100k or 1m, I do not know, the point is that you will kind-of pay for the money other guys before you have won.

lucario21

jr. member

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Yes, the market keep it that way, imagine if everyone gains and no one will lost the capital goes down and btc value will be back where it started. There's a gamble when it comes to investment.

hase0278

hero member

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Quote from: virendarnagpal on February 08, 2018, 10:40:13 PM

Whether it is true or not that in markets like Bitcoin (crypto) ; one person gains only when the other losses some thing. Suppose one person bought one Bitcoin for $5000 in January 2017 and sells in June 2017 for suppose $10000 he gains $5000 by selling. Now the purchaser in June 2017 @ $10000 sells it for $6000 in January 2018 and as a result he losses $4000. So it is clear from the example that the profit of seller in June which was $5000 includes the loss suffered by the person who bought it in June 2017 and sold in January 2018.
If there are some other reasons for this profit / loss factor, I request other members to please share their knowledge with the platform because my opinion may be on the basis of partial truth and there may be other factors responsible too.

You are partially right but those who bought what someone sold can still profit in the future. The full truth is that, the Bitcoin is being passed from one user to another using a process called trading, which have two categories, the buy and selling. Bitcoin is being passed from the seller to the buyer and then the buyer later on can become the seller to pass it on to another person. The buyer can profit if he/she can sell it at a higher price.

bug.lady

member

Activity: 196

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Large scale, green crypto mining ICO

Quote from: virendarnagpal on February 08, 2018, 10:40:13 PM

Whether it is true or not that in markets like Bitcoin (crypto) ; one person gains only when the other losses some thing. Suppose one person bought one Bitcoin for $5000 in January 2017 and sells in June 2017 for suppose $10000 he gains $5000 by selling. Now the purchaser in June 2017 @ $10000 sells it for $6000 in January 2018 and as a result he losses $4000. So it is clear from the example that the profit of seller in June which was $5000 includes the loss suffered by the person who bought it in June 2017 and sold in January 2018.
If there are some other reasons for this profit / loss factor, I request other members to please share their knowledge with the platform because my opinion may be on the basis of partial truth and there may be other factors responsible too.

You are perfectly right that transacting is a game with negative expected return. Why is that? Because the only sure winner is the exchange or broker who takes profit from percentage or constant fees. Bitcoin is still different, but if you take forex, than the next winners are big corporate investors who have their infrastructure enabling them a very fast access to that market, they can make arbitrage or take positions increasing liquidity which give them profit because they are the very first to do it. The rest of investors don't have those opportunities, they are to slow, and in the long run they lose (negative expected return).

In bitcoin the expected return is still negative, but with current influx of money into bitcoin you can bet against the increase of the price (aka hodl). It may be a good bet, I admit. But chances are, of course, that you will lose. In that case the winners will be the guys who sold when it was still high and maybe will buy on the next deep.

Remember, that the expected return is negative, what means that it is not "when you win somebody must lose", but rather "somebody must lose some more when you win", and of course, "when somebody wins you lose some more".

penig

member

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Merit: 13

You dont realise a profit or loss until you sell something. Profit for one investor means a cost for another, which may be a profit or loss in the future. If something has utility, then there may never be any loss, or a purchaser may evaluate their gain in ways other than simplistic $ profit/loss. i.e., buying food, transportation or shelter.

richminded

sr. member

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It’s hard to say that but I think investing or trading is really a cycle. Yes, one will loss and the other one takes profit. But for me, It doesn’t matter if I make profit and someone loss Its not my problem anymore because I am just doing what’s on my strategy so if people make loss, then the problem is with him.

Pasadoble

jr. member

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So moral is that when you are buying in low price you should hold and sell in the high price. If the second person would sell coins in the end of December, he/she would get profit, or if he would not sell and wait until February when price at least the same as it was when he was buying. So it is about making wise decisions

krishnaverma

full member

Activity: 1442

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Some people do loose money especially as it has evolved now. People investing at current levels have more chances of getting burnt than those who took the risk at initial stages. The only solution I see to this is to invest for long term. If you are waiting for at least 6 months after investing, Bitcoins will not disappoint you.

Mystica101

member

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I strongly disagree with this one, because if you're an investor and bought crypto at low price you'll sell it on your desired price where you'll gained profit and you have no plan of selling it if you'll lose more than you bought. Your only best plan to do is to hold it until you'll get back what you have spend and ofcourse a little or more profit from it but in trading your opinion is applicable I guess.

pawanjain

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Nothing lasts forever

Quote from: mk4 on February 08, 2018, 10:46:51 PM

The other person not necessarily ends up with a loss. What if the purchaser in June 2017 doesn't sell it for $6000, and instead waits for the future increase instead like $12,000 for instance, so he still wins $2000 in the end. There's more to that in the markets, and it's much much more complicated (I think). But yea, whether we like it or not they're gonna be losers in the markets. There's always going to be those people who FOMOs in and panic sells out.

P.S. Correct me if I'm wrong

I would say you are a little wrong here. This is actually a matter of Time complexity where one has to bear the loss of the equivalent profit made by the other. So in one case, the OP is right. If there is no buyer then you will not be able to sell your bitcoins at all and vice versa. As the future chain continues where the person from future keeps buying at higher rates, everybody makes profit but as soon as he sells at lesser rate ( for example: panic sellers) that amount is lost and indirectly reaches the person who bought it at lesser rate. So yeah, it is complex and yeah, one has to loose money so that the other can make a profit out of it(but as long as the price is going up , everybody makes profit).

equator

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Quote from: virendarnagpal on February 08, 2018, 10:40:13 PM

Whether it is true or not that in markets like Bitcoin (crypto) ; one person gains only when the other losses some thing. Suppose one person bought one Bitcoin for $5000 in January 2017 and sells in June 2017 for suppose $10000 he gains $5000 by selling. Now the purchaser in June 2017 @ $10000 sells it for $6000 in January 2018 and as a result he losses $4000. So it is clear from the example that the profit of seller in June which was $5000 includes the loss suffered by the person who bought it in June 2017 and sold in January 2018.
If there are some other reasons for this profit / loss factor, I request other members to please share their knowledge with the platform because my opinion may be on the basis of partial truth and there may be other factors responsible too.

I dont agree with you are this is partially right, what if the another user who bought in june 2017 @ $10000 sells it for $17000 in December 2017 itself that means he is also in profit. Who is greedy will only mostly make loss but who takes profit in short will always be in gain. So your theory wont work for almost everyone only for greedy traders it suits it.

vv181

legendary

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It's just hows the ways its work. Trading is a non-zero-sum game, if there's a winner there must be a loser. At some points, it does not matter how good the traders is they will have some losses. Its no way the traders will always have a profit.

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