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Topic: "Proof of Human" Coin ? (Read 3920 times)

member
Activity: 75
Merit: 10
June 08, 2017, 03:21:13 AM
#65
i think humans would find any way possible to manipulate this system for monetary reward. If someone could hack a computer a bit to emulate two humans to earn twice as much, then that system has a direct monetary reward.. and development shall begin.

Maybe it has to be proof of human with no computer hardware..

It just need to prove human activity - so something what it is hard to emulate or trick

some tests can be hidden from audience or be taken randomly during compilation, there is also a lot of possibilities and behavioural data to analyse.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/proof-of-being-human-mixed-with-proof-of-work-ann-preico-ico-unicornsworld-1944481

Proof of Being HUMAN mixed with Proof of Work [ANN] [preICO] ICO Unicorns.WORLD

Obviously it need to be a inflation coin, but that is not a problem for currency as long as there is software build on it to boost popularity.
member
Activity: 64
Merit: 10
My girls in my trap team all Baggin Cryptos!!!
June 07, 2017, 05:38:44 PM
#64
i think humans would find any way possible to manipulate this system for monetary reward. If someone could hack a computer a bit to emulate two humans to earn twice as much, then that system has a direct monetary reward.. and development shall begin.

Maybe it has to be proof of human with no computer hardware..


the sequence would have to be something that can only happen once. Like a key to the next step would be in a database that purges itself once accessed once. if someone tried to hack the database they would receive a salted hash. Making them feels stupid because its a lot easier to prove they are human than to solve a salted hash.
member
Activity: 64
Merit: 10
My girls in my trap team all Baggin Cryptos!!!
June 07, 2017, 05:30:39 PM
#63
There are puzzles that a computer cant solve. Steganographic and cryptographic puzzles are a good place to start. Also there is a chess puzzle that a computer can not solve http://mashable.com/2017/03/14/solve-this-chess-puzzle/#xsRzI9xYgiq3
Could you explain how steganographic/cryptographic could be made to be immune from algorithms?

One immune puzzle will not work, as it would be easy to program the solution to that single puzzle into a bot's logic.

There is also a way to make a Human prove they are a human before they even have access to the puzzle Wink
via ReCaptcha? It is not immune to computer algorithms either... Google shows numerous instances of research showing it being breakable.
via captchas? Plenty of literature showing they are even less immune than reCaptcha...

I agree that one puzzle would not work the puzzles would have to be different every time with completely different solutions and using different algorithms to encrypt the answers.I would steer away from anything captcha related. Think BIGGER and more dynamic.

The puzzles would have to be dynamic and created by a human with the answers encrypted by a computer and deployed at random by a computer.
full member
Activity: 126
Merit: 100
June 03, 2017, 02:17:48 AM
#62
i think humans would find any way possible to manipulate this system for monetary reward. If someone could hack a computer a bit to emulate two humans to earn twice as much, then that system has a direct monetary reward.. and development shall begin.

Maybe it has to be proof of human with no computer hardware..
hero member
Activity: 3024
Merit: 614
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
June 03, 2017, 02:11:28 AM
#61
solving captcha is a bad idea i guess

I think it is,raiblocks is all mess up in my opinion with to many people claiming but only the top 150 claimants can payout people wants an easy to get a coin and captchas are one of the easy and lazy way to work online .
sr. member
Activity: 630
Merit: 250
June 02, 2017, 11:56:42 PM
#60
solving captcha is a bad idea i guess
legendary
Activity: 1484
Merit: 1026
In Cryptocoins I Trust
June 02, 2017, 11:45:10 PM
#59
There are puzzles that a computer cant solve. Steganographic and cryptographic puzzles are a good place to start. Also there is a chess puzzle that a computer can not solve http://mashable.com/2017/03/14/solve-this-chess-puzzle/#xsRzI9xYgiq3
Could you explain how steganographic/cryptographic could be made to be immune from algorithms?

One immune puzzle will not work, as it would be easy to program the solution to that single puzzle into a bot's logic.

There is also a way to make a Human prove they are a human before they even have access to the puzzle Wink
via ReCaptcha? It is not immune to computer algorithms either... Google shows numerous instances of research showing it being breakable.
via captchas? Plenty of literature showing they are even less immune than reCaptcha...
member
Activity: 64
Merit: 10
My girls in my trap team all Baggin Cryptos!!!
June 02, 2017, 07:02:22 PM
#58


...
HUMAN solving some sort of puzzle unsolvable by a computer
...
solves a series of puzzles proving that the USER is IN FACT a HUMAN ...
These are the weak links of your idea. There are no puzzles that humans can solve that an algorithm can't.

---------------


There are puzzles that a computer cant solve. Steganographic and cryptographic puzzles are a good place to start. Also there is a chess puzzle that a computer can not solve http://mashable.com/2017/03/14/solve-this-chess-puzzle/#xsRzI9xYgiq3

There is also a way to make a Human prove they are a human before they even have access to the puzzle Wink

sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 250
June 02, 2017, 11:08:56 AM
#57
Regarding "effectively giving to charity", I think your view is a bit skewed. You use the context of "taxes" and "charity" to give the appearance of more legitimacy to coins that favor the wealthy.

I thought I was fairly objective, or at least I meant to be. To be clear, I hate BOTH being taxed by the poor AND being taxed by the rich.

Fair enough, but in a global economy you are not the only participant.
legendary
Activity: 1484
Merit: 1026
In Cryptocoins I Trust
June 02, 2017, 10:22:37 AM
#56
Regarding "effectively giving to charity", I think your view is a bit skewed. You use the context of "taxes" and "charity" to give the appearance of more legitimacy to coins that favor the wealthy.

I thought I was fairly objective, or at least I meant to be. To be clear, I hate BOTH being taxed by the poor AND being taxed by the rich.

EDIT: To be even more clear- I hate taxes in general because they are generally spent on things I disagree with, shadily pocketed by some individual or corporation, or spent wastefully.
sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 250
June 02, 2017, 09:53:50 AM
#55
...
I stand by my reasoning that investing in a Captcha PoW mined coin is effectively giving to charity, as the reward for the PoW is only big enough for the poorest of people to participate. It is the opposite of ASIC mined coins... instead of the rich taxing the poor, the poor tax the middle class and the rich, because the poor receive the lionshare of the inflation/transaction fees.

...

Specifically solving capchas is a wasteful use of labor, of course, but maybe somebody will develop a proof of work algorithm involving a science coin that requires intellectual input, some decision made by a human, in order to constantly sharpen the algorithm.

Regarding "effectively giving to charity", I think your view is a bit skewed. You use the context of "taxes" and "charity" to give the appearance of more legitimacy to coins that favor the wealthy.
member
Activity: 64
Merit: 10
My girls in my trap team all Baggin Cryptos!!!
June 02, 2017, 02:41:25 AM
#54
What about a coin that before it enters circulation. The key to the coin or coins location after being mined is held on a uncrackable and encrypted database that terminates itself after a HUMAN solves a sequence of steps and puzzles to prove the USER is a human? The inputs to access this database would be sanitized properly and the "Keys" stored in this database would be stored as a Salted Hash until a human properly retrieved it. If malicious code was injected into the database and ANYTHING was retrieved. Not only would the attacker receive a Salted Hash but the database would know something was pulled from it and Purge itself, since it only stores the single Salted hash anyways. The attacker would be left with a Salted Hash to try and crack to gain access to the key witch would make them feel stupid because its a HELL of a lot easier to just prove you are human. Of course to implement this you would need hundreds of thousands of databases and thousands more being created daily by a decentralized service. So this is all in theory at this point.
legendary
Activity: 1540
Merit: 1011
FUD Philanthropist™
June 02, 2017, 02:28:03 AM
#53
All of crypto is about "redistribution of wealth"
None of these "coins" are being created out of thin air..

BUY into an ICO lately ?

Kind of funny how you'd need to have money that is used to buy some other money that replaces the first money no ? ROFL
legendary
Activity: 1484
Merit: 1026
In Cryptocoins I Trust
June 02, 2017, 01:27:34 AM
#52
Wait a minute. When a poor person mines with actual work, they are receiving "charity", but when a rich person mines using hardware while they are actually doing something else, it is "work"?

Lol. I never said that exactly. I hate ASICs for opposite reasons, and prefer CPU/GPU mined coins since they are an equilibrium of the two extremes.

All methods of PoW/PoS are different.

Investing in an ASIC mined coin is effectively agreeing to the rich taxing the poor and the middle class. The reward is incentive enough for all to participate, but the rich receive massive efficiency boosts due to the economies of scale ASICs bring and the high costs associated with their development.

CPU/GPU mining is a decent equilibrium between the two extremes. The rewards are also incentive enough for everyone to participate, but the rich receive no benefit on the efficiency of the PoW because GPUs/CPUs cost them the same amount of money as they cost a poor person. Yet, there is no such thing as an ASIC-proof coin, and these too will eventually be mined by ASICs if the risk/reward is enough for it to become economically feasible. So, although these coins start out more fair, just like Bitcoin/Litecoin did, they end with the rich taxing the poor and middle class too.

I stand by my reasoning that investing in a Captcha PoW mined coin is effectively giving to charity, as the reward for the PoW is only big enough for the poorest of people to participate. It is the opposite of ASIC mined coins... instead of the rich taxing the poor, the poor tax the middle class and the rich, because the poor receive the lionshare of the inflation/transaction fees.

PoS and all of its variants end up with the rich taxing the poor too. With the PoS coins that pay X percent per annum for staked coins, the rich tax the poor more and more over time due to compounding interest when the rich reinvest their earnings. They become more and more likely over time to find the next block and process transactions. Especially considering the rich don't need the money or earnings, whereas the poor and middle class are less likely to reinvest the interest, or may even have to withdrawal it all at times due to unforeseen circumstances. dPoS also suffers from the rich taxing the poor, as with dPoS the rich have more voting power which they can use to vote in their own witnesses/delegates to process transactions and receive newly minted coins.

The bolded is why I am interested in alternative consensus algorithms. PoS/PoW and all of their variants are great experiments that are much needed by the cryptocurrency community, because all forms of currently existing PoW/PoS consensus algorithms are broken in one way or another (with many other issues other than this issue alone). Every consensus mechanism has its pros and its cons, and there are no perfect ones whether it be a PoW or PoS variant. There are tradeoffs with all PoS and PoW variants. However, I believe that by continuing to experiment with and brainstorming new consensus algorithms, that we will continue to improve upon currently existing consensus algorithms. Ideally, an improved consensus algorithm would benefit everyone equally- the rich, the poor, and the middle class. It is just a very complicated problem to solve.
sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 250
June 02, 2017, 12:31:51 AM
#51
... people living in the poorest parts of the world will always have an advantage over people who don't because they are willing to work for much less. Then investing or buying the cryptocurrenct is effectively an overly complicated charity. There are better, easier, and less complex ways to donate to charities.

...

Wait a minute. When a poor person mines with actual work, they are receiving "charity", but when a rich person mines using hardware while they are actually doing something else, it is "work"?

legendary
Activity: 1484
Merit: 1026
In Cryptocoins I Trust
June 02, 2017, 12:17:57 AM
#50
Instead of annoying captchas couldn't you instead design the coin so that everyone mines at the same speed regardless of hardware? Instamining wouldn't be a problem and there would be no huge dumps from mining farms when the coins hits an exchange, leading to a stable exchange rate. You could have random special blocks worth 2-3 times the normal block reward to keep people mining. I think a coin designed this way would function well as a currency. If I had any coding skills I'd try making a coin around this idea as an experiment.

Impossible due to Sybil. Someone who makes 1,000,000 accounts will mine faster than an honest person who has 1 account.

Captchas are not good either. Most captchas can be broken by algorithms. Even if you do manage to make a bullet proof captcha, people living in the poorest parts of the world will always have an advantage over people who don't because they are willing to work for much less. Then investing or buying the cryptocurrenct is effectively an overly complicated charity. There are better, easier, and less complex ways to donate to charities.

Unless the whole concept of your cryptocurrency is redistribution of wealth... but even still, you would need people to buy the cryptocurrency to do so, and just like real life- only a portion of people will give a portion of their wealth to charities. Nothing really changes in that sense.

There are many Captcha farms... for instance, solve 1000 Captchas and get $0.97 USD here: https://2captcha.com/

...
HUMAN solving some sort of puzzle unsolvable by a computer
...
solves a series of puzzles proving that the USER is IN FACT a HUMAN ...
These are the weak links of your idea. There are no puzzles that humans can solve that an algorithm can't.

---------------

Biometrics may not even be feasible.

There is no scientific evidence that no two fingerprints are the same. It can only be quantified as being unlikely, as it is impossible to examine the fingerprints of every human alive. Furthermore, no two fingerprints from the same person are exactly the same due to inconsistencies in the way they are scanned/imprinted which can cause fingerprints from the same person to go unmatched. (A nice video from a  good TV show if you like to learn stuff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM1QgwaKv4s)

DNA fingerprinting is not reliable either. Generally, a certain amount of locations of chromosomes (loci) are used to determine DNA matches. As the number of people in a DNA fingerprint database grows, the more likely it is for collisions to occur. http://freakonomics.com/2008/08/19/are-the-fbis-probabilities-about-dna-matches-crazy/

Furthermore, someone can simply sell their DNA fingerprint to someone else. Therefore, the rich end up with the same advantages they have in PoW and PoS algorithms. Even if you created hardware specifically for a cryptocurrency to scan someone's DNA to confirm it is a certain person, the hardware can still be hacked to produce false positives.

----------

I too am interested in solving this problem, but I have done plenty of research into it in the past few years and came up with no solutions. There may yet still be a solution, but it will not be easy to conceive it.
legendary
Activity: 1540
Merit: 1011
FUD Philanthropist™
June 01, 2017, 11:11:18 PM
#49
I posted a poll in off-topic with the same name  Cheesy
I asked if people thought captcha's proved you were human.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/poll-proof-of-human-1827611

Captcha coin ?
hero member
Activity: 3010
Merit: 794
June 01, 2017, 10:53:51 PM
#48
I've been thinking about the issues with bitcoins, altcoins, etc.. The biggest problem seems to be that people with huge mining rigs (or botnets) come in and take all the coins while the difficulty is low.

I propose a new coin that adds on the goodness from other coins: CPU mining, Scrypt, etc.. requiring a CPU + GPU to do effective mining. Further it extends this to also require a "PoH" analysis to confirm each coin. The PoH can use captcha, or another mechanism to verify that a human did some work to confirm each coin. This would slow down the mining by large farms, and make human input and analysis relevant. Further, the human  analysis could be interesting and educational at the same time. So a miner gets the value of generating a coin + the challenge of answering an analysis question.

What do folks think? Would this work?


Good idea but a little bit complicated when you tried to enforce it on making such changes.We cant do anything since there are companies,people do have an advantage as of now when a certain coin pops-out they can easily mine and accumulate as they can since they have the capability and thinking off on human interactions it will surely slow up the rise of difficulty but those whose on the top wont really agree on this thing for sure.
sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 250
June 01, 2017, 10:36:24 PM
#47
"Nature find its way". I think is the same with Humans and Technology. People always find a way to take advantage and gain profit from a "software"/technology
Examples:
  • Forced labor: Prisoners forced to play WOW to gain gold and equip. Then it would be sold for dollars
  • Scientifics and students using AI to solve capchas
  • People using apps to fake GPS coordinates to capture pokemons
  • Cheap labor: have x numbers of phone, pay someone to give 5 stars to certain app in all the x phones. Then you can sell 5 starts reviews
  • Twitter bots / followers
  • Etc...


Yes, it's true, but a person can either support poor judgment or discourage it. The sharpest minds never favor abuses like those, and it's a part of nature that bad shortcuts don't work for long.
member
Activity: 84
Merit: 10
June 01, 2017, 08:28:51 PM
#46
"Nature find its way". I think is the same with Humans and Technology. People always find a way to take advantage and gain profit from a "software"/technology
Examples:
  • Forced labor: Prisoners forced to play WOW to gain gold and equip. Then it would be sold for dollars
  • Scientifics and students using AI to solve capchas
  • People using apps to fake GPS coordinates to capture pokemons
  • Cheap labor: have x numbers of phone, pay someone to give 5 stars to certain app in all the x phones. Then you can sell 5 starts reviews
  • Twitter bots / followers
  • Etc...
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