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Topic: Proposal to Address Dormant Bitcoin:Recycling Lost Coins into the Mining Process - page 3. (Read 748 times)

legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18748
1. What if miners start sabotaging block creation after 2140? Would introducing some coins that haven't moved since January 2009 help?
What would be the incentive for miners to start sabotaging block creation? Mining honestly would still net them transaction fees. Mining dishonestly just for the sake of it earns them nothing unless they control 51% of the network, which is incredibly unlikely.

Further, if you start unlocking unmoved coins, you create a huge incentive to mine dishonestly. If the total block reward is (for example) 0.5 BTC from fees, and you release 50 BTC, then there is a massive incentive for every individual miner to try to reorganize dozens of blocks to try to claim the 100x reward for themselves. This problem compounds the more additional coins you release.

Wouldn't it be better to change the consensus regarding UTXOs made with old algorithms when transitioning to new ones?
No. I think it is far preferable for some old coins to be stolen and reenter circulation by people who have sufficiently powerful quantum computers, than it would be for developers to overturn one of the key pillars of bitcoin and start deciding what happens to coins they don't control.
member
Activity: 77
Merit: 19
2. Some say quantum computers could crack private keys of UTXOs created in Satoshi's time. By the time such computers exist, nobody will be using the old algorithms (the community will be forced to transition to something else). But would it be fair that the UTXOs from 2009 go to the quantum computer developer? Wouldn't it be better to change the consensus regarding UTXOs made with old algorithms when transitioning to new ones?


answer:
First of all, these mythical quantum computers. They are not and will not be useful for such tasks. All those fancy scientific studies are tainted with elaborate theories. Notice that so far, they can only confirm algorithms that have already been devised. The states of the so-called qubits as 0, 1, or unknown, don't really matter. If it were otherwise, why would people keep creating new supercomputers when they could have a super quantum computer for half the cost? Please stop scaring people with these quantum computers and what they cannot do. If you had experience with such computers (and I do), you would know that it's a fairy tale, like something from moss and ferns.


legendary
Activity: 1610
Merit: 2026
I'm saving bitcoin for retirement and will not move my coins for 20 years. You've just stolen my money.
I've timelocked some bitcoin for 21 years as an inheritance for a new family member. You've just stolen my money.
I'm a political dissident who has been detained without trial by a dictatorship for 15 years. You've just stolen my money.
I've been sent to jail for non-violent victimless crimes for 10 years. You've just stolen my money.
I've been working in another country for 10 years with some wallets safely stored at my parent's/other family member's house which I have not accessed. You've just stolen my money.
There are a hundred other reasons someone might not move their coins for 10 years. That does not give you the right to steal them.

And that's without even touching on the crazy idea of implementing a system which allows coins to be moved with providing a signature.
Initially, I also thought about all these cases (especially about political prisoners, since I'm from Russia, and my wife is from Belarus). But then I noticed that the 10-year timeframe is not the OP's fundamental stance but rather an illustrative example. So, let’s think about following questions:
1. What if miners start sabotaging block creation after 2140? Would introducing some coins that haven't moved since January 2009 help? (Similarly, in four years, in 2144, coins untouched since February 2009 could be put into circulation, and so on.)
2. Some say quantum computers could crack private keys of UTXOs created in Satoshi's time. By the time such computers exist, nobody will be using the old algorithms (the community will be forced to transition to something else). But would it be fair that the UTXOs from 2009 go to the quantum computer developer? Wouldn't it be better to change the consensus regarding UTXOs made with old algorithms when transitioning to new ones?

In general, I can imagine situations where the questions raised in this thread will become relevant. So, this topic doesn't necessarily revolve around theft.
full member
Activity: 1092
Merit: 227
As regular user or non technical user I think it will impact me very badly. They might just take away my Bitcoins because they might think my Bitcoin is dormant due to inactivity but in reality I would be holding them for long period of time. This need not to be implemented because it will also cause issues with market dilution. It will liquidate enormous amount of Bitcoin and thus devaluing it.

Quote
Even as Bitcoin surges to levels not seen in months, HODLing will never go out of style.
More than half of the coins in existence have not moved in over two years, according to recent figures—a new all-time high.

Blockchain data firm Glassnode told Decrypt that the amount of Bitcoin which last moved more than two years ago currently stands at 53.14%.
That means 10.2 million Bitcoin is sitting still—roughly $309 billion-worth of satoshis. A total of 19.3 million Bitcoins have been mined since the cryptocurrency came into existence

If you just check above stats then you will understand what I mean or others on the thread Are saying.

It’s superseded problem if we implement such algorithm. Half of the Bitcoin will be sucked into mining all the time if this happens. Crazy.


Reference for the Quote Here.
member
Activity: 189
Merit: 16
There is no way to distinguish permanently lost coins from those that just weren't moved for a longer time. If we confiscate old coins, who would still pay for digging up trash dumps?
hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 792
Watch Bitcoin Documentary - https://t.ly/v0Nim
How to address coins are "lost"?
Whenever you access your wallet, a 10 year timer will begin/reset. If the wallet is not accessed again in 10 years the coins will go back to the mine. Keep in mind, i never mentioned activity (sending or receiving), simply accessing, or logging on.
It's Bitcoin, not a domain renewal, you know.
Also, that approach, to recycle lost coins into mining process, is absolutely wrong and devastating. Imagine, I have a wallet where I hodl bitcoins. 8 years have passed and somehow bad thing happened to me, I got into a coma or was arrested for political reasons or etc. Let's assume I got wrongly convicted of attempting a crime. I spent 4 years in prison and then they freed me. What happens when I go outside? My wealth, my bitcoins, are lost.

Also, radical changes like that, will finally bring bad power. If people feel okay to do such a huge changes, then I'm afraid a dictatorship will slowly take over bitcoin. At first we set 10 years, then 5 years, then someone will come up with an idea to recycle all bitcoin wallets that don't come from exchange and aren't KYC verified.
Just leave things the way they are, there is no need of such a change at the moment.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18748
I'm saving bitcoin for retirement and will not move my coins for 20 years. You've just stolen my money.
I've timelocked some bitcoin for 21 years as an inheritance for a new family member. You've just stolen my money.
I'm a political dissident who has been detained without trial by a dictatorship for 15 years. You've just stolen my money.
I've been sent to jail for non-violent victimless crimes for 10 years. You've just stolen my money.
I've been working in another country for 10 years with some wallets safely stored at my parent's/other family member's house which I have not accessed. You've just stolen my money.
There are a hundred other reasons someone might not move their coins for 10 years. That does not give you the right to steal them.

And that's without even touching on the crazy idea of implementing a system which allows coins to be moved with providing a signature.
legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 4801
This proposal aims to address the issue of dormant Bitcoin,
Nonsense. It is not an "issue" for a person to decide that they want to save money for the future and not spend it right now.

commonly referred to as "lost" or "unclaimed" coins,
I prefer to just call it what it is, "unspent".

by suggesting a mechanism to recycle them back into the mining process.
Say what you mean: "suggesting a mechanism to STEAL money from others"

By doing so, we strive to prevent Bitcoin from being permanently lost
Nothing lasts forever. If you don't want to lose your bitcoins, then make sure you have a good system of storing and securing your private keys.

and ensure the long-term integrity
Sounds to me like you're trying to DESTROY the integrity, not preserve it.

and scarcity of the network.
Wouldn't permanently lost bitcoins IMPROVE scarcity?

numerous Bitcoin wallets remain inactive for extended periods, often due to users losing access to their private keys or abandoning their wallets.
Or simply choosing not to spend their bitcoins.

This results in a significant amount of Bitcoin becoming inaccessible
That's the point, isn't it?  My bitcoins are SUPPOSED to be inaccessible to you.

and presumed lost forever.
You can presume whatever you want, but that doesn't give you the right to steal them.

To prevent the permanent loss of Bitcoin, we propose the implementation of a mechanism that gradually and systematically sends dormant funds back into the mining process after a predefined period of inactivity.
No thanks. This has been suggested hundreds of times before. Your scam to steal bitcoins is not welcome in the bitcoin community. Go take your stea-a-coin altcoin idea elsewhere. I'm sure there are some scammers and thieves in the world that would love to support you in this endeavor.

Specifically, if a Bitcoin wallet remains not accessed(by simply logging on,
There's no such thing as "logging on" to Bitcoin.

opening the wallet)
There's no way to know whether or not someone has "opened their wallet". Perhaps you fail to understand what the word decentralized means?

for a continuous period of ten years, the funds associated with that wallet will be redistributed back to the network
Ten years? Ten years!?!

If someone in their 20s wants to use Bitcoin to save for retirement, they may not touch those bitcoins for at least 40 and possibly as much as 70 years! And you want to steal their bitcoins just because they are planning and preparing for their future?

dont be a dick about it like in other posts i have seen.
So you're already aware that this nonsense has been presented in the past, and you're already aware that it wasn't received well, and yet here you are being a dick about it and rehashing the same tired trash yet again.  Just go away please.

This space can be very very toxic.
That's what happens when thieves come here and try to convince the gullible among us to join them in their crusade to take bitcoins away from others.
hero member
Activity: 1274
Merit: 681
I rather die on my feet than to live on my knees
Let's keep it simple: Not this shit again!

This proposal welcomes community input, further analysis, and consensus-building to refine and implement the suggested mechanisms successfully...just dont be a dick about it like in other posts i have seen. This space can be very very toxic.

You're talking about taking people's money, forcing people to move their money around so they can't be seized by a centralized authority that can decide and change those criteria as it sees fit, and despite going against everything Bitcoin stands for you want us to just congratulate you for your great idea and not to stick it in the lost hole of Uranus?

Didn't even thought of it from this point of view. Indeed, if people have Bitcoin hodled for longer than 10 years, then, they would have to move it forceably. It seems to me not a good thing. Of course we al would like to see Satoshi's sats being moved but that's just a wish, not a real need!

I also think that the community needs to focus more in other mechanisms to help avoinding to "lose" Bitcoins instead of trying to recover them or sending them back to circulation via mining!
legendary
Activity: 2912
Merit: 6403
Blackjack.fun
Let's keep it simple: Not this shit again!

This proposal welcomes community input, further analysis, and consensus-building to refine and implement the suggested mechanisms successfully...just dont be a dick about it like in other posts i have seen. This space can be very very toxic.

You're talking about taking people's money, forcing people to move their money around so they can't be seized by a centralized authority that can decide and change those criteria as it sees fit, and despite going against everything Bitcoin stands for you want us to just congratulate you for your great idea and not to stick it in the lost hole of Uranus?
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 1010
Crypto Swap Exchange
This proposal aims to address the issue of dormant Bitcoin, commonly referred to as "lost" or "unclaimed" coins, by suggesting a mechanism to recycle them back into the mining process. By doing so, we strive to prevent Bitcoin from being permanently lost and ensure the long-term integrity and scarcity of the network.

Bitcoin is a decentralized digital currency that relies on private keys for ownership and access to funds. However, numerous Bitcoin wallets remain inactive for extended periods, often due to users losing access to their private keys or abandoning their wallets. This results in a significant amount of Bitcoin becoming inaccessible and presumed lost forever.

I must say, I have a lot of problems with your proposal. First you usually can't decide in a trustless and decentralized way which coins are lost or where the owner simply doesn't want or have the need to move them. There shouldn't be an authority or force to have to move coins. Period.

I even don't see the need for provably lost coins to recycle them back into circulation. Lost coins make those from everybody else a little more valuable. I don't appreciate any scheme that destroys coins deliberately, but as Bitcoin is decentralized and trustless I can't do anything about it.


This process will involve adding the dormant coins to the mining reward pool, where they will be available for miners to compete for during their usual mining operations.

To ensure fairness and prevent concentration, the redistribution of dormant coins will be algorithmically divided among miners based on their proportional mining power, similar to the current mining reward distribution.

The entire process, from identifying dormant wallets to the redistribution mechanism, will be transparent and publicly auditable. Detailed reports and statistics will be made available to ensure transparency and build trust within the Bitcoin community.

Miners compete against each other and as said already there's a winner who takes all the block reward. Now you want to redistribute recycled coins based on estimated proportional mining power? Proportional to all miners at once? I'm not sure if I understand you properly. Please, elaborate in more detail!

Transparency and auditability sound nice, but explain how you want to do that trustless and decentralized. If an audit shows issues, how do you want to fix those? Transactions are final and non-reversible.


Preservation of Scarcity: By recycling dormant coins back into the mining process, we ensure that the total supply of Bitcoin remains finite, maintaining the intended scarcity and economic principles of the network.

You have that already without your proposal. Active coins in circulation actually benefit in value by provably lost coins. You might not like it but that's your problem.


Encouraging Active Ownership: This proposal incentivizes Bitcoin holders to actively manage and secure their wallets to avoid the risk of losing their funds. It promotes responsible ownership and strengthens overall network security.

By the value of Bitcoins every owner is already incentivised to not loose his private keys or wallet(s). Your proposal forces owners to otherwise unnecessary actions if they don't want or need to move their stash.


Enhanced Network Stability: The recycling of dormant coins helps distribute previously lost value among active miners, potentially reducing the concentration of mining power and contributing to a more stable and decentralized network.

I see a contradiction here as concentration of mining power would benefit due to your proposed redistribution by proportional mining power.


This proposal aims to address the issue of dormant Bitcoin by implementing a mechanism to recycle lost coins back into the mining process after a specified period of wallets not being accessed. By doing so, we can prevent permanent losses, enhance network stability, and ensure the long-term integrity of the Bitcoin network.

We have about 21*1014 coin units at max with current design and even if we loose half of it it's still more than 1014 coin units. I don't see the need for recycling nor it to be fair and justified in any way.
jr. member
Activity: 51
Merit: 20
I'd like to see your list of lost coins please
legendary
Activity: 2870
Merit: 7490
Crypto Swap Exchange
To ensure fairness and prevent concentration, the redistribution of dormant coins will be algorithmically divided among miners based on their proportional mining power, similar to the current mining reward distribution.

1. Current mining reward distribution actually is "winner takes all".
2. Hashrate of each miner/pool only can be estimated[1] based on block they've mined.
3. How long past blocks should be checked in order to determine the distribution?

How to address coins are "lost"?
Whenever you access your wallet, a 10 year timer will begin/reset. If the wallet is not accessed again in 10 years the coins will go back to the mine. Keep in mind, i never mentioned activity (sending or receiving), simply accessing, or logging on.

Bitcoin protocol doesn't force wallet software to make log about when the address/wallet is accessed. So your idea is essentially impossible.

[1] https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/a/115090
legendary
Activity: 3038
Merit: 4418
Crypto Swap Exchange
Becouse:

1. They want money for themself.
2. It will kill BTC
Both doesn't make sense. For the first point, an increased circulation results in the decrease in the value of each coin. There is no point in recovery that benefits all.

For the second, Bitcoin is actually designed to be deflationary in the long run. Economic concepts says that deflation is bad but that concerns more of the fiat and their function as financial stabilizers. Having a lower amount of Bitcoin doesn't actually affect Bitcoin. You can go beyond Satoshis as the lowest denomination.
legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 10611
How to address coins are "lost"?
Whenever you access your wallet, a 10 year timer will begin/reset. If the wallet is not accessed again in 10 years the coins will go back to the mine. Keep in mind, i never mentioned activity (sending or receiving), simply accessing, or logging on.
The only achievement of something like this is forcing people to spam the blockchain with pointless transactions.
For example I have coins that I acquired back in 2014 when I found out about bitcoin and have not moved them since because there was no reason to move them and I don't want to! Something like this is going to force me to move those coins for no good reason!
copper member
Activity: 821
Merit: 1992
Those coins can never be recovered, and the total circulation is less.  Since the effective circulation is reduced, all the remaining coins are worth slightly more.  It's the opposite of when a government prints money and the value of existing money goes down.
legendary
Activity: 2800
Merit: 2736
Farewell LEO: o_e_l_e_o
Lost coins are not actually lost, its value would be transferred to other people that still have access to their bitcoin, as the bitcoin that are still accessible become more scarce.
Satoshi once said that.😉
I don't remember the quote/unquote though.

Whenever you access your wallet, a 10 year timer will begin/reset. If the wallet is not accessed again in 10 years the coins will go back to the mine. Keep in mind, i never mentioned activity (sending or receiving), simply accessing, or logging on.
OMG, you are telling me to set a timer or someday I will check my wallet and will see someone took my coins! Never going to happen. You are surely not the first one telling such stupid idea. I read the same somewhere long ago.
member
Activity: 77
Merit: 19
Why do people care so much about "lost" coins anyway?
What's in it for them, or anyone (except miners)?

I don't get it.
You should instead be happy for every coin lost or burned.


Becouse:

1. They want money for themself.
2. It will kill BTC
legendary
Activity: 3676
Merit: 1495
Why do people care so much about "lost" coins anyway?
What's in it for them, or anyone (except miners)?

I don't get it.
You should instead be happy for every coin lost or burned.
copper member
Activity: 906
Merit: 2258
It breaks some protocols, for example Proof of Burn. You can burn a coin in your coinbase transaction, just by taking less coins than you could. Then, there is no lost UTXO, everything is 100% clean, you just have some coinbase output that has lower uint64 value, and there are no other traces. But even if you have some OP_RETURN, then still, there is no reason to bring it back, because using OP_RETURN means that a particular user intentionally removed some coins from circulation.

Also, your proposal breaks some puzzles, for example this one: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/reward-offered-for-hash-collisions-for-sha1-sha256-ripemd160-and-other-293382
In that case, you would need to refresh those addresses every 10 years, just to say that "this puzzle is still not solved, but because of demurrage rules, it has to be recreated".

Quote
by simply logging on, opening the wallet
You cannot prove that you have access to some coin, without creating some kind of signature. You need to make a transaction, sign some coins without moving, or wrap some proof in some Homomorphic Encryption, but that way or another, "logging on" is not enough, you have to touch your private keys if you want to prove something. Also, you have to choose your accepted proof carefully, because there are ways to trick that you own something without having keys, for example in this way:

Code:
message="Hello World"
address="1psPJZYEJrjPtY6kw5Tqtj4mW2yXSSDuH"
signature="GwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAE="

Nobody has access to 1psPJZYEJrjPtY6kw5Tqtj4mW2yXSSDuH, but this signature is valid. So, if you want to accept some proofs, then choose them wisely, to avoid attacks like public key recovery.

Quote
A comprehensive analysis of the blockchain will be conducted to identify wallets that have not shown any activity for ten years. This process will be automated to ensure accuracy and efficiency.
If there will be some consensus rule, like "UTXOs not touched for 10 years can be claimed by miners, without signatures", then it will create a huge incentive to mine empty blocks. Currently, when the basic block reward will drop to zero, miners will need to encourage users to move their coins, because fees will be the only incentive. Your proposal breaks that assumption, because miners could collide, and say "let's mine empty blocks for 10 years, and then we will start collecting a lot of coins from the old times, before all of those halvings".

Quote
To ensure fairness and prevent concentration, the redistribution of dormant coins will be algorithmically divided among miners based on their proportional mining power, similar to the current mining reward distribution.
Note that "the current mining reward distribution" is "winner takes all". Of course, we have mining pools, but it is not a part of the consensus rules. Also, how do you want to compute "their proportional mining power", without writing all shares on-chain?

Quote
The entire process, from identifying dormant wallets to the redistribution mechanism, will be transparent and publicly auditable. Detailed reports and statistics will be made available to ensure transparency and build trust within the Bitcoin community.
I hope you don't want to introduce manual selection of outputs. That would be far worse than some simple, and automated rule, like "move UTXO without signatures, if age is greater than 10 years".

In general, demurrage is something that could be tried on some altcoins, or even better, on some test network. But doing that on Bitcoin would be a disaster. That way or another, if you think seriously about it, you should start from some testnet anyway (or maybe even signet, if you want to manually decide, which coin should be redistributed).
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