Provably fair, correct me if I'm wrong

rolldice.io

newbie

Activity: 42

Merit: 0

Quote from: paradoxal420 on January 27, 2015, 06:28:01 AM

Quote from: rolldice.io on January 20, 2015, 05:59:47 AM

Quote from: kotwica666 on January 20, 2015, 05:43:58 AM

Quote from: findftp on January 20, 2015, 05:19:58 AM

Many bitcoin gambling sites state that they are provable fair.
Let's assume they are.

But what if they bet on their own game many many times, wouldn't they increase their profit by doing so?
If they create the highest betting volume, they have a higher stake in the whole game.

Do I miss something?

I don't think that there is any possibility of cheating when game is provably fair..
Here it is well described:

https://satoshidice.com/provably-fair/

The site operator could still cheat the investors. By knowing the server seeds they could predict any roll outcome and drain the bankroll. Checkout our site https://rolldice.io, we developed a solution specifically to this problem, also checkout our thread at https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/rolldiceio-the-first-provably-fair-for-investors-and-players-bitcoin-dice-game-920704

Correct me if I'm wrong but your site isn't provably fair and I showed you this.. lol

Check our Fair page, you will find a video which shows you how to do a manual verification. Our site is 100% provably fair, please do not spread false informations.

paradoxal420

full member

Activity: 229

Merit: 100

Quote from: rolldice.io on January 20, 2015, 05:59:47 AM

Quote from: kotwica666 on January 20, 2015, 05:43:58 AM

Quote from: findftp on January 20, 2015, 05:19:58 AM

Many bitcoin gambling sites state that they are provable fair.
Let's assume they are.

But what if they bet on their own game many many times, wouldn't they increase their profit by doing so?
If they create the highest betting volume, they have a higher stake in the whole game.

Do I miss something?

I don't think that there is any possibility of cheating when game is provably fair..
Here it is well described:

https://satoshidice.com/provably-fair/

The site operator could still cheat the investors. By knowing the server seeds they could predict any roll outcome and drain the bankroll. Checkout our site https://rolldice.io, we developed a solution specifically to this problem, also checkout our thread at https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/rolldiceio-the-first-provably-fair-for-investors-and-players-bitcoin-dice-game-920704

Correct me if I'm wrong but your site isn't provably fair and I showed you this.. lol

ranochigo

legendary

Activity: 3038

Merit: 4418

Crypto Swap Exchange

Quote from: uki on January 27, 2015, 05:08:32 AM

Quote from: ranochigo on January 26, 2015, 05:41:14 AM

Quote from: fox19891989 on January 21, 2015, 03:37:37 AM

Once I read a thread about dice cheating, it says the site admin can control the result, and admin can use new accounts to steal money from investors.

Many sites have been marked as scam for this. Sites can easily manipulate results, nothing stops them from doing so, you would require lots and lots of trust for people to invest in you. For sites like just-dice, doolgus have been well known before the site was even opened. That is what caused people to invest in his site, without trust nothing is possible. Just recently, a scam site called dicebitco.in has been found to be skipping nonce and cheating investors money. They blamed it on the previous developer who inserted malicious code. His activity seems shady and thankfully the site is shut down.

well, but once the malicious code is inserted, the dice stops being provably fair (correct me if I am wrong). So the main issue is how much you can trust the dice site operator? Secondly, to have publicly available long enough observation window on the roll results (test of provability) so that you can make your own idea on how good the site is.

Well, anyone who have access to the server can make changes to the website, including developers, they can very easily modify the provably fair system and cheat investor's money. Site owners will not probably allow third party to review their source code before making changes, you would very likely have to just trust them.

uki

legendary

Activity: 1358

Merit: 1000

cryptojunk bag holder

Quote from: ranochigo on January 26, 2015, 05:41:14 AM

Quote from: fox19891989 on January 21, 2015, 03:37:37 AM

Once I read a thread about dice cheating, it says the site admin can control the result, and admin can use new accounts to steal money from investors.

Many sites have been marked as scam for this. Sites can easily manipulate results, nothing stops them from doing so, you would require lots and lots of trust for people to invest in you. For sites like just-dice, doolgus have been well known before the site was even opened. That is what caused people to invest in his site, without trust nothing is possible. Just recently, a scam site called dicebitco.in has been found to be skipping nonce and cheating investors money. They blamed it on the previous developer who inserted malicious code. His activity seems shady and thankfully the site is shut down.

well, but once the malicious code is inserted, the dice stops being provably fair (correct me if I am wrong). So the main issue is how much you can trust the dice site operator? Secondly, to have publicly available long enough observation window on the roll results (test of provability) so that you can make your own idea on how good the site is.

ninjaboon

legendary

Activity: 2128

Merit: 1002

Quote from: rolldice.io on January 27, 2015, 01:52:54 AM

Quote from: ninjaboon on January 26, 2015, 06:50:01 AM

Quote from: unamis76 on January 20, 2015, 09:12:52 AM

I think the only way to scam is running with the funds... Provably fair covers many trust issues.

one way to reduce chances of the OP with running away with your hard earn btc is to use a trusted escrow to hold the funds.

This is what we are attempting to do, amongst other things. Anyone tried our site yet ?
We added an on chat tip-bot/faucet feature, it rains several thousand satoshies every now and then to active users Cool

played on your site earlier before the maintenance. will try again soon.

rolldice.io

newbie

Activity: 42

Merit: 0

Quote from: ninjaboon on January 26, 2015, 06:50:01 AM

Quote from: unamis76 on January 20, 2015, 09:12:52 AM

I think the only way to scam is running with the funds... Provably fair covers many trust issues.

one way to reduce chances of the OP with running away with your hard earn btc is to use a trusted escrow to hold the funds.

This is what we are attempting to do, amongst other things. Anyone tried our site yet ?
We added an on chat tip-bot/faucet feature, it rains several thousand satoshies every now and then to active users Cool

sherbyspark

hero member

Activity: 910

Merit: 1000

Quote from: ninjaboon on January 26, 2015, 06:50:01 AM

Quote from: unamis76 on January 20, 2015, 09:12:52 AM

I think the only way to scam is running with the funds... Provably fair covers many trust issues.

one way to reduce chances of the OP with running away with your hard earn btc is to use a trusted escrow to hold the funds.

Using a multisig wallet would work as well. But I think the site owner would always still be in control of some of the funds to process withdrawls.

ninjaboon

legendary

Activity: 2128

Merit: 1002

Quote from: unamis76 on January 20, 2015, 09:12:52 AM

I think the only way to scam is running with the funds... Provably fair covers many trust issues.

one way to reduce chances of the OP with running away with your hard earn btc is to use a trusted escrow to hold the funds.

ranochigo

legendary

Activity: 3038

Merit: 4418

Crypto Swap Exchange

Quote from: fox19891989 on January 21, 2015, 03:37:37 AM

Once I read a thread about dice cheating, it says the site admin can control the result, and admin can use new accounts to steal money from investors.

Many sites have been marked as scam for this. Sites can easily manipulate results, nothing stops them from doing so, you would require lots and lots of trust for people to invest in you. For sites like just-dice, doolgus have been well known before the site was even opened. That is what caused people to invest in his site, without trust nothing is possible. Just recently, a scam site called dicebitco.in has been found to be skipping nonce and cheating investors money. They blamed it on the previous developer who inserted malicious code. His activity seems shady and thankfully the site is shut down.

fox19891989

hero member

Activity: 840

Merit: 1000

Quote from: b!z on January 25, 2015, 01:46:17 AM

Quote from: fox19891989 on January 21, 2015, 03:37:37 AM

Once I read a thread about dice cheating, it says the site admin can control the result, and admin can use new accounts to steal money from investors.

The OP says to assume that the site in his example IS provably fair.

No, the result is modifiable, and the is also provably fair. My friend opened a dice site in 2013, and he cheated so the scandal was famous in China. And the site IS also provably fair.

(Lithium)

sr. member

Activity: 367

Merit: 250

Quote from: fox19891989 on January 21, 2015, 03:37:37 AM

Once I read a thread about dice cheating, it says the site admin can control the result, and admin can use new accounts to steal money from investors.

makes some sense. The admin knows the server seed, so his sock puppet could always win, making the site go bankruptcy while he still has coins

bitbaby

hero member

Activity: 812

Merit: 1000

Quote from: findftp on January 20, 2015, 05:56:13 AM

When you win, you get the stake
When you lose, you lose to yourself.

Other tiny players can only win when they win Undecided

(dumb sentence, but I hope you get my point)

The owners of the site can increase their profit by increasing the betting volume. The only thing they really lose is the transaction fee I just figured.

I see what you mean OP and I think it makes a certain sense.

b!z

legendary

Activity: 1582

Merit: 1010

Quote from: fox19891989 on January 21, 2015, 03:37:37 AM

Once I read a thread about dice cheating, it says the site admin can control the result, and admin can use new accounts to steal money from investors.

The OP says to assume that the site in his example IS provably fair.

panju1

legendary

Activity: 1246

Merit: 1000

Quote from: kotwica666 on January 20, 2015, 05:43:58 AM

Quote from: findftp on January 20, 2015, 05:19:58 AM

Many bitcoin gambling sites state that they are provable fair.
Let's assume they are.

But what if they bet on their own game many many times, wouldn't they increase their profit by doing so?
If they create the highest betting volume, they have a higher stake in the whole game.

Do I miss something?

I don't think that there is any possibility of cheating when game is provably fair..
Here it is well described:

https://satoshidice.com/provably-fair/

Provably fair means if you cheat, there is high probability that you would get caught.
Doesn't stop a site from cheating / running away with investor funds.

Josef27

hero member

Activity: 784

Merit: 1000

Quote from: kotwica666 on January 20, 2015, 08:44:52 AM

It looks like owner can probably always find a way to cheat customers. Sad

Seems to be the safest solution in which the owner is sharing earnings with investors - more investors safer casino.

Unless the owner run away with the investors' money
Even if the owner try to cheat his customer (by backdooring the provably fair or something) the members would figured it out quickly.

fox19891989

hero member

Activity: 840

Merit: 1000

Once I read a thread about dice cheating, it says the site admin can control the result, and admin can use new accounts to steal money from investors.

yoloer808

full member

Activity: 288

Merit: 113

Web dev for hire

Quote from: Omikifuse on January 20, 2015, 07:52:24 PM

Quote from: findftp on January 20, 2015, 05:19:58 AM

Many bitcoin gambling sites state that they are provable fair.
Let's assume they are.

But what if they bet on their own game many many times, wouldn't they increase their profit by doing so?
If they create the highest betting volume, they have a higher stake in the whole game.

Do I miss something?

they have house edge, so I guess they would not win.

Even if they do, they would have to pay from their own bankroll, so no advantage at all

Guess you meant something else

he means a situation in which they accept investments, and therefore defraud investors. Yes this is basically how it works - you need to trust the owners of the casino not to do it. Trust takes time to build.

Omikifuse

legendary

Activity: 1862

Merit: 1009

Quote from: findftp on January 20, 2015, 05:19:58 AM

Many bitcoin gambling sites state that they are provable fair.
Let's assume they are.

But what if they bet on their own game many many times, wouldn't they increase their profit by doing so?
If they create the highest betting volume, they have a higher stake in the whole game.

Do I miss something?

they have house edge, so I guess they would not win.

Even if they do, they would have to pay from their own bankroll, so no advantage at all

Guess you meant something else

kotwica666

legendary

Activity: 2282

Merit: 1035

Quote from: yahoo62278 on January 20, 2015, 05:52:55 PM

so why invest in a site at all if theyre able to cheat investors? im kinda hijacking here but im curious

E:That was not about cheating investors, that was about cheating clients..

I was talking about possibilities. If owner have to pay dividend to investors. He have less chance to win if he will want to play on his own web. Cheesy

s**t

thats crazy! I know! But there is logic! Grin

yahoo62278

legendary

Activity: 3808

Merit: 4603

Contact @yahoo62278 on telegram for marketing

so why invest in a site at all if theyre able to cheat investors? im kinda hijacking here but im curious

Topic: Provably fair, correct me if I'm wrong (Read 1412 times)