Topic: Provably fair dice - real or bulshit ? - page 4. (Read 22743 times)

I don't agree it's high, but its low. Go to online casinos who operates with dollars, and you'll see there's higher house edge.

Provably fair just means its not rigged.
Still 1% houseedge is quite high for an online casino.

AFAIK ideal way for MP apps for each bet:

1) Get serverseedhash for next bet, show it to user, save it in browser (localstorage.) Note: if the browser is refreshed, STILL, use that same serverseedhash.
2) Generate a cryptographically-secure random clientseed, example of Ryan: https://gist.github.com/RHavar/a6511dea4d4c41aeb1eb Note: if the browser is refreshed, STILL, use that same clientseed.
3) Allow the player to change the clientseed, if he desires to do so.
4) Player clicks *bet*, you send those seeds to make the bet and get the result/serverseed back.
5) Check if the previously saved serverseedhash matches the hash of the bet result serverseed (in the user's browser)
6) Check if you calculate the same bet result with that serverseed (in the user's browser)

And repeat for next bet. This seems like a big process but is fairly easy to make and the player shouldn't even really notice.

You can see DustDice does this: https://github.com/dustdice/dustdice/blob/master/public/scripts/game-logic/engine.js#L205 This is just after making a bet. It verifies the game and it generates a new client seed.


* You will notice that in the process, the clientseed for each bet is different. That is the best way, but some players like to pick a "lucky clientseed". You could actually combine a random but still saved clientseed, described by Ryan here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.12018096


That is the "nonce method" (using the same seeds for 10, 100 or even 1 million bets, but an incremental nonce to make the result different.) This way, you can verify all the bets, since the verifier just uses the incremental nonce too. But MP doesn't use this method.

MP uses the "per roll method" so the verifying has to be after each bet. This makes sense if you want to automatically verify bets since you don't need to request a new serverseed every time. But it only works if MP apps actually implement the verification process

to be frank we are noobs regarding provably fair implementation but we love the provably fair option because we don't want to cheat and don't want to be cheated

we added for example on 2 of our last apps the option for the user to change seeds because some user asked for it

what do you mean with " MP apps should help the players by verifying each bet directly after it was made."? is the Bet ID not enough where user can check the outcome?

could you give us a sample MP app who implemented it so we could check and tell our coders to add it?

in our opinion a player will not verify his bets as long he is winning but will start to check/verify after some losses. is there a provably fair option for the user to verify all his bets after his session and not to check after each loss? this is interrupting each players game and not preferable in our opinion

thx for the help

I think the "normal verifiers" are "good enough".

But an alternative for such automated verifying would be a more simple JS file (potentially as browser extension.) It would have the same risk, but since it won't have a bot, it should be way less lines of code and therefor easier to check for anyone who runs it





PS, for MoneyPot, I think the apps should make automated verifying in the user's browser. Basically it's MoneyPot who could cheat the players, so the MP apps should help the players by verifying each bet directly after it was made. (And also ensure the client seed is unique for each bet.) I assume some MP apps might do this already, but I never really looked at it.

very understandable not to run a.exe file related to bitcoin gambling but what would be the alternative and best solution in your opinion? thx

Yeh, some things to consider though:

- In theory site could change your bet history. Like "high" instead of "low" for a bet. Or the bet amount (bigger on losing bets - this is something dicebitco.in was claimed to do too.) Or just put fake bets in between while you are betting, but remove those when you generate a new serverseed. All of this is detectable though, especially because most people just want to check that last ~10 bets on which they lost... so you most likely remember how those bets went. But what I mean: in the end a verifier just makes the list of bet results/numbers, it obviously doesn't know the actual winning/losing amounts etc.

In theory the ideal third-party provably fair verifier runs in the browser and saves all the bets you make on the fly and verifies them right away if "per roll method" or after x bets if "nonce method". I believe seuntjies dicebot has something like that already, the only problem is that you will need to run a .exe file or inspect thousands of lines of code. Personally I like seuntjie and his bot has been around for years, but I would still never run a .exe file related to bitcoin gambling :X

There isnt one for all sites because i don't think most that sites give api access to those logs.

Kinda like this if you click toggle you can check all your bets manually.
But you can't validate all of them at once because its not either public with api or json/php format.

https://bitvest.io/results?start=&end=&query=sparked

Would be a cool idea though.

Thanks, would be good if someone could right an open source bot to check all bet hashes.

I will have a look at moneypot, I have seen their advertising in some signature here but so far have only played dice on Fortune Jack.

Edit: This look close to what i want, i will check it out, thanks.

That's why the "nonce method" is so great, because you use the same seeds for x bets. For example BetKing offers a "Click to verify" button after you generate a new serverseed. This links to my site with already all the seeds pre-filled.

So after I made 33 bets, I want to verify all of them, I click the "Generate server seed" button and then "Click to verify" which brings me here:

https://dicesites.com/betking/verifier?ln=32&cs=uFrya5K5HyvjBH5&ssh=FEA42BEC5229729C5A88A5D8069685858BD99EA8479DCD73EA54857DA82DCD82E33D99068146E9CC029B671C8C16BB43C5E8ED7D761DFBBA757AE0341685357D&ss=gM5zrDWBoRT7Mb3Gq2%2FUwo6WBpkLDiMTTs0b%2FVAHSY1ovSxMxBgKAuvEwsuJZEYPUT9OxNRPZkPaz2CN48bI0gE%3D

All you have to do is compare that list of bet results with your BetKing bets. So verifying bets on BetKing literally just takes 1 click (or 2 if you include generating a new serverseed.)

So far there isnt anything sort of that yet however the closest things will be moneypot, which has a bet id page that verifys everything. If someone could have made some sort of plugin or some sort of ticker that could automatically does everything and notify when the verifications fails that would be better

The above site is good to check the roll of dice on your bet was not tampered with but how many people actually check each bet they make?

I guess you could probably have someone write a bot to record all the hashes that are shown on each bet and run them after play, anything like this already available?

It is clear there is nothing wrong with most popular dice site Primedice and it have 100% provably fair system but first you have to learn something about provably fair system and how it works,

https://dicesites.com/provably-fair

I agree, when you are in a loosing streak and use margtingale thats when house edge gets you, while your doubling your bet your profit gets lower and lower in my own opinion.

He is saying that for you to be sure that you were not cheated, it is necessary that you verify your bets, any site can say that they're provable fair, same thing happened with dicebitco.in, they said they were but when some bets were verified it was found out that they manipulated the rolls.

So all he is telling you is that unless you verify your rolls, provable fair doesn't mean anything.

Yes you can verify your bets and when you don't change client seed then its your mistake ! Do not gamble what you can not afford to loose please or if you do so, please do not blame others.

I think it is real . Provably fair is a system where you can check what number was meant to be rolled , whether it is the number you have rolled. Although some sites like 999dice have cheated us ( the users ) by telling they are using provably fair , whereas they weren't , I think primedice and rollin really have no problem with that .

But you will never know if you never try it. You just need some reviews from people and that people need to try too just make sure they are cheating and what I saw from dice game. House edge doesnt really affect much in a short game or may be manually click it. House edge always occur when you are in a longer bet that is why you should set some daily goal in case bad luck coming

That isnt 100% true most sites like bitvest explain in detail how it is calculated an the algo.
Tho martingale works just fine for many users just when is that edge going to sneak up on you.
Biggest mistake people make is chasing loses.

Also pof is a method of allowing you to verify a game was legit.
It go's so far as allowing you to make your own side of the script if you don't trust what it auto gives.




https://bitvest.io/results

I'f you click on toggle you can verify every game you choose.




The dev for bitvest is really open to how things work an tries his best to explain it so everyone understands.