"Provably fair" question | Bitcointalksearch.org

dooglus

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Quote from: Temo58 on January 06, 2016, 05:58:06 PM

When i use PF on betcoin.ag every first bet 80% wins.

That's fantastic. You can use this to break the bank!

(Unless, as I suspect, it isn't actually true).

How long do you have to wait after a bet for the next bet to count as another "first bet"? Or does randomizing the seed fix it immediately every time?

erwin45hacked

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Quote from: Temo58 on January 06, 2016, 05:58:06 PM

When i use PF on betcoin.ag every first bet 80% wins. one time i bet in one seed 40 bets. there was unfair game. but when i renew this seed all became ok.

It is just a stupid thing to read, yoj eed to understand meaning of provably fair first. Changing the seed again and again doesnt mean that you will win or your bad luck will be gone. You are just changing the result of the number so this doesnt mean you will win after you change it. It totally depends on your luck

Straux

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I have no idea what gambling site you're on about, but I know pevpot uses the hash of an incoming block or something.

But yes, it would be time based in some circumstances of using the blockchain as an RNG. But why not use random.org? Roll Eyes

Temo58

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When i use PF on betcoin.ag every first bet 80% wins. one time i bet in one seed 40 bets. there was unfair game. but when i renew this seed all became ok.

LiberOptions

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In a provably fair gambling system, a player places bets on games offered by the service operator. The service operator will publish a method for verifying each transaction in the game. This is usually by using open source algorithms for random seed generation, hashing, and for the random number generator.

jackg

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https://bit.ly/387FXHi lightning theory

Quote from: dooglus on January 06, 2016, 02:41:31 PM

Quote from: pinoycash on January 06, 2016, 02:36:11 PM

Forget about the provably fair, because its not. if you think your suffering 3 straight losses from a dice..wait for at least 30 sec before betting again and then try it. someone needs to loose for you to win

I don't think you know what you are talking about. Most sites certainly don't work that way.

I know more about sites like freebitco.in.
I have read their entire "provably fair conditions".

A hexadecimal code/string (the ServerSeed) Is created by the server and can be changed by the user.
Another hexadecimal code/string (the ClientSeed) is created by the random number that is generated while you role.

The server seed "integer" is then devided by the client seed "integer" (or visa versa)

This gives the number that is then given and tested against the previously set probabilities of the dice game, or the free Bitcoin game.

The server seed is given to the user and represented, while the client seed is never distributed to the user after the "game".

I think that this is what it means with Server Seed and Client Seed.

I know that OP didn't request this, but I though that this may be useful information if he wanted to know or any other user.

dooglus

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Quote from: pinoycash on January 06, 2016, 02:36:11 PM

Forget about the provably fair, because its not. if you think your suffering 3 straight losses from a dice..wait for at least 30 sec before betting again and then try it. someone needs to loose for you to win

I don't think you know what you are talking about. Most sites certainly don't work that way.

pinoycash

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Forget about the provably fair, because its not. if you think your suffering 3 straight losses from a dice..wait for at least 30 sec before betting again and then try it. someone needs to loose for you to win

ndnh

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New Decentralized Nuclear Hobbit

Quote from: btc-raffle.com on January 06, 2016, 02:03:39 PM

Quote from: dooglus on January 06, 2016, 04:15:15 AM

Quote from: btc-raffle.com on January 05, 2016, 09:01:19 PM

So your saying long as the hash that is used is from a block and not a transaction is ok?

Not entirely. The block reward is 25 BTC. If I'm a miner and find that a block I just mined makes me lose a 1000 BTC bet it would possibly be in my best interest to withhold that block and let someone else mine a different block.

That still makes it probably fair

It is provably fair.

And no, miners get an advantage, which is against being "fair" (though I don't think someone would actually use it to his advantage) But using the term can well be questioned.

jackg

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https://bit.ly/387FXHi lightning theory

Quote from: chesthing on January 05, 2016, 06:29:51 PM

I'm not going to try to understand what they are talking about with the client seeds, player seeds, SHA etc numbers that go into the round result (dice roll, blackjack draw, roulette spin etc). I just have one simple question for somebody who understands it better than I:
I see that this system uses blockchain transactions in some way. Does this mean that the result will change at any given time? in other words, let's say I roll a 50, then immediately roll a 92 for example. Would this 92 appear if I had waited say a few minutes? or does the next roll result change with every passing second? hope this question makes sense.

As I understand it, it should change every few seconds/milli seconds.
Blocks are only released every few minutes, meaning, that you are more likely to get the same number for a while until a new block is released.
I cannot state that this would be the case, as I don't know what site you are using.

btc-raffle.com

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Quote from: dooglus on January 06, 2016, 04:15:15 AM

Quote from: btc-raffle.com on January 05, 2016, 09:01:19 PM

So your saying long as the hash that is used is from a block and not a transaction is ok?

Not entirely. The block reward is 25 BTC. If I'm a miner and find that a block I just mined makes me lose a 1000 BTC bet it would possibly be in my best interest to withhold that block and let someone else mine a different block.

That still makes it probably fair

ndnh

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Quote from: dooglus on January 06, 2016, 04:15:15 AM

Quote from: btc-raffle.com on January 05, 2016, 09:01:19 PM

So your saying long as the hash that is used is from a block and not a transaction is ok?

Not entirely. The block reward is 25 BTC. If I'm a miner and find that a block I just mined makes me lose a 1000 BTC bet it would possibly be in my best interest to withhold that block and let someone else mine a different block.

I feel relying on block hashes makes it too complicated*, and transaction hashes way too unreliable.

*for me, that is.

ndnh

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New Decentralized Nuclear Hobbit

Quote from: chesthing on January 05, 2016, 06:29:51 PM

I see that this system uses blockchain transactions in some way. Does this mean that the result will change at any given time? in other words, let's say I roll a 50, then immediately roll a 92 for example. Would this 92 appear if I had waited say a few minutes? or does the next roll result change with every passing second? hope this question makes sense.

Some do, some don't.

For off-chain games, they don't (generally) rely on blockchain transactions or blocks, at least none of the popular ones.

Usually, on-chain games like SatoshiDice and Luckyb.it have txid as a component and another daily secret key for which hashes will be given in advance.
https://www.satoshidice.com/files/daily-secret-hash.txt
http://luckyb.it/secret-key-hashes.txt
So, the bet result would be different if your transaction id is different or if the bet is made on another day.

Does it matter? No.
The bet result is random and still has exactly the same probability of being a particular result.

dooglus

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Quote from: Patatas on January 06, 2016, 06:25:46 AM

Nope,every time a dice is rolled ,the random unknown event of the block is generated which is what he call "Provably Fair" instance.

We don't even know which site he is asking about yet, so I don't know how you can answer his question.

I saw a reply from him last night listing 3 sites, one of which was something like "rollin", but it looks like the post was since deleted.

Edit: reading https://rollin.io/fair I see nothing about using anything from the blockchain.

Patatas

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Nope,every time a dice is rolled ,the random unknown event of the block is generated which is what he call "Provably Fair" instance.Most the websites are transparent enough to check last hash/seeds generated so you don't doubt its not random.You could additionally come up something called "martingle"based on the patterns which is again counted as useless since in the long run it doesn't work.

dooglus

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Quote from: btc-raffle.com on January 05, 2016, 09:01:19 PM

So your saying long as the hash that is used is from a block and not a transaction is ok?

Not entirely. The block reward is 25 BTC. If I'm a miner and find that a block I just mined makes me lose a 1000 BTC bet it would possibly be in my best interest to withhold that block and let someone else mine a different block.

btc-raffle.com

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Quote from: dooglus on January 05, 2016, 08:39:25 PM

Quote from: btc-raffle.com on January 05, 2016, 07:57:15 PM

Didn't you just tell me using blockchain can be faked so using it is not provably fair.

It's possible to use the blockchain in a provably fair manner - see pevpot.com for an example. They use a future block hash as the input to a calculation that takes over an hour to come up with the winning ticket. So even if the miner is trying to cheat (perhaps by withholding a block if it makes him lose) he won't know whether his block makes him lose for an hour, by which time it will have been orphaned by some other miner.

I don't know what site OP is talking about. It is possible that it's a site like yours which claims to be provably fair but isn't. Maybe it even *is* your site - I don't know.

So your saying long as the hash that is used is from a block and not a transaction is ok?

dooglus

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Quote from: btc-raffle.com on January 05, 2016, 07:57:15 PM

Didn't you just tell me using blockchain can be faked so using it is not provably fair.

It's possible to use the blockchain in a provably fair manner - see pevpot.com for an example. They use a future block hash as the input to a calculation that takes over an hour to come up with the winning ticket. So even if the miner is trying to cheat (perhaps by withholding a block if it makes him lose) he won't know whether his block makes him lose for an hour, by which time it will have been orphaned by some other miner.

I don't know what site OP is talking about. It is possible that it's a site like yours which claims to be provably fair but isn't. Maybe it even *is* your site - I don't know.

Pony789

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Quote from: Joel_Jantsen on January 05, 2016, 07:49:39 PM

I sort of understood your question, if I'm not wrong you want to weather the time in seconds does matter when you roll or say does the with winning probability increase if you wait take breaks and gamble. The answer is no, it doesn't work like that. The requests are served from the server from your previous bets channel itself making the winning chance completely random.

That is the usual case. But as OP explicitly said "this system uses blockchain transactions in some way", I am not sure if it holds here. In the past I remember seeing some dice sites using Bet ID or Bet Time as an input of the hashing function. In those cases, making a bet now will give you a different result as making a bet after waiting for a second.

btc-raffle.com

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Quote from: dooglus on January 05, 2016, 07:07:24 PM

Quote from: chesthing on January 05, 2016, 06:29:51 PM

I'm not going to try to understand what they are talking about with the client seeds, player seeds, SHA etc numbers that go into the round result (dice roll, blackjack draw, roulette spin etc). I just have one simple question for somebody who understands it better than I:
I see that this system uses blockchain transactions in some way. Does this mean that the result will change at any given time? in other words, let's say I roll a 50, then immediately roll a 92 for example. Would this 92 appear if I had waited say a few minutes? or does the next roll result change with every passing second? hope this question makes sense.

Which game are you asking about?

If it says that your roll is randomized according to the hash of the most recently found block, or some such, then yes, timing matters.

I don't know of anywhere provably fair that does that though for real-time games.

Didn't you just tell me using blockchain can be faked so using it is not provably fair.

Topic: "Provably fair" question (Read 1088 times)