Provably fair RTP ? - page 2. | Bitcointalksearch.org

paxmao

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Quote from: ryzaadit on May 04, 2022, 06:20:05 PM

Quote from: TimeTeller on May 04, 2022, 06:08:08 PM

-snip-

Ah yes SportBook, is a good option.

However, even LiveGames still can be manipulated for the RTP. Example playing "Blakcjack", If you remove 1-3 card is already change the RTP. But, we all don't know about the fairness of the deck even the game is live.

So, is really hard to be tracked.

Not that much if you have open code that can be verified at any time. One example of this are ethereum contracts, which I believe can also be implemented over a bitcoin network indirectly. You can verify at any time that the contract is there, you are calling it and, if you want to get into the code you can validate the RTP and the fairness. That is what I call provably fair at least.

mu_enrico

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Yea, we can't check/verify the RTP in slots, even with provably fair slots. RTP value is obtained by running millions/billions of simulation. I remember Stake revised its provably fair slots' HE a long time ago. Provably fair only means the future spin cannot be tampered, thus the result is fair. It's not about the validity of the programmed (theoretical) RTP.

So what's the solution? Well, sadly nothing we can do as a user except to trust the 3rd party provider. So the best practice is only to play games released by reputable, top brands. And make sure you connect to official server, play the real games since I heard there are pirated copies of the game.

m2017

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Quote from: michellee on May 05, 2022, 02:43:29 AM

We just need to trust the gambling site because maybe we will find it difficult to check. If it is a trusted gambling site, we should trust them because it will not cheat on its users. So I guess if their site has Provably Fair writing, then we just have to enjoy the game without thinking that they will cheat. But you can just check to see the actual state of Provably Fair on that site.

We have no other choice but to trust a gambling website with a declared RTP. As for trusted websites, here I agree with your opinion that they have no reason to deceive their users, because trust is their most valuable asset. And here you are again right that you should lower your level of distrust of trusted gambling websites and just enjoy the service provided by them. In any case, we can't compare the claimed RTP with the real ones, so the only thing left to do is focus on the gambling.

delfastTions

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Quote from: Kakmakr on May 04, 2022, 07:24:43 AM

If I start a Poll now to see how many people trust the displayed RTP for the Slots by casinos and Slot providers, I can bet you the majority will choose the option that says ... "I do not trust the RTP displayed."

I think the RTP is adjusted in real-time to adapt to the needs of the casino..... and nobody ever challenge it .. they just trust the casinos. Roll Eyes

The regulated Brick n Mortar casinos are being audited to see if they are using the correct parameters for their games, but the online casinos have no check&balances for this.

Of course, almost everyone will answer that they do not trust the RTP data. And from little-known casinos and from large and reputable casinos. And it is impossible to find out this data, unless one of the casino employees reveals such secret, insider information. However, in the best case, he will be immediately caught by the security service and fired. And who needs it?
On the other hand, we do not know the casino's own operating costs. And these costs seriously affect the RTP.
So all that remains is to look at the presented RTP data of a particular casino, subtract 20% and smile.

michellee

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We just need to trust the gambling site because maybe we will find it difficult to check. If it is a trusted gambling site, we should trust them because it will not cheat on its users. So I guess if their site has Provably Fair writing, then we just have to enjoy the game without thinking that they will cheat. But you can just check to see the actual state of Provably Fair on that site.

Dunamisx

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Quote from: Kakmakr on May 04, 2022, 01:25:52 AM

Can Software developers not write "Provably fair" code.. to enable people to click on a option in the game to "test" the actual RTP of the Slot at that given moment?

Though I don't see anything as beyond the crackable capacity of hackers except if they don't bid for it, they can as well achieve this but i think its better to play safe and work by the casinos that make theirs available on the site rather than embarking on what may seems suspicious on the player's account which could lead to another thing entirely, so i go by the ones i can see to verify and any casinos i doubt or couldn't find their RTP then i move forward with my search, i think this should be a choice and not until one finds what he wants then struggles must to continue.

Poker Player

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Quote from: Kakmakr on May 05, 2022, 12:55:42 AM

It is clear that you are just posting sh1t on here to boost your signature income and you do not know what you are talking about. Most of the online gambling sites are operating under the Curacao Gambling License and they are not doing "audits" to check if the RTP being used is fair.

The Curacao eGaming provides technical and financial support for the online gambling industry. Examples : providing ...dedicated services, private cloud servers, international finance...

Curacao doesn’t intervene in disputes between players and operators. From the player’s point of view, a license from Curacao is meaningless.

Source : https://www.gamblingsites.org/laws/curacao/

I agree. He is writing crap. And not only what you are saying. Some of the casinos that advertise on this forum don't even have a license, so it's even worse. I don't know what he is doing talking about licenses in Europe. He must think crypto casinos are like the fiat regulated houses he sees on TV commercials.

Kakmakr

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Quote from: Synchronice on May 04, 2022, 05:44:09 PM

Quote from: Kakmakr on May 04, 2022, 01:25:52 AM

We live in times where almost everything is possible with software these days, but I have not seen any Casino having code that shows in real-time what the actual RTP is for ALL their games.

You will go to a site and you will click through several steps to find the RTP, but the RTP is simply the advertised RTP for that game. The latest Slots have multiple RTP settings for the same Slots (eg Hacksaw Games) and you never know on which RTP that Slot is running.

Can Software developers not write "Provably fair" code.. to enable people to click on a option in the game to "test" the actual RTP of the Slot at that given moment?

There are a lot of discussions in casino chats and forums on casinos hiding the actual RTP for their games and the RTP and Variance being adjusted in real-time to "feed" during certain periods. A provably fair system to check this will build more trust and it will also reduce frustration and negativity from gamblers on these platforms.

You have provably fair systems to check the bets, but we do not have provably fair systems to check the real-time RTP being used by the casinos. Roll Eyes

It seems, that you and some people here don't really know how the things work in case of both, online and real life casinos. Online casino is not a business where you buy the script from a shady guy and run installed script on cheap Hetzner servers.

Licensed online casinos are constantly and strictly audited to ensure that the whole gambling process is fair and safe for gamblers. I don't know if it's general or not but I can certainly say that in some countries there are laws where casinos can't lower the RPT under a certain limit, in Europe casinos are very well regulated. Every single process is tested and the results are submitted to the gaming commission, they can retest anything anytime and it should prove the previous fairness.

It is clear that you are just posting sh1t on here to boost your signature income and you do not know what you are talking about. Most of the online gambling sites are operating under the Curacao Gambling License and they are not doing "audits" to check if the RTP being used is fair.

The Curacao eGaming provides technical and financial support for the online gambling industry. Examples : providing ...dedicated services, private cloud servers, international finance...

Curacao doesn’t intervene in disputes between players and operators. From the player’s point of view, a license from Curacao is meaningless.

Source : https://www.gamblingsites.org/laws/curacao/

Wexnident

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Quote from: Kakmakr on May 04, 2022, 01:25:52 AM

There are a lot of discussions in casino chats and forums on casinos hiding the actual RTP for their games and the RTP and Variance being adjusted in real-time to "feed" during certain periods. A provably fair system to check this will build more trust and it will also reduce frustration and negativity from gamblers on these platforms.

Probably because as you said, if they were to give out a way to check the RTP, if it were to ever change the cause of some variance and shows unmatched results, it may just be argued that the casino is lying. Not to mention that for the average user, it's rather complicated that they wouldn't even bother trying it out in the first place. And considering how casinos are in the first place, businesses and they would, ofc, prioritize profits first, putting out that small feature (even if it's rather simple), they wouldn't really bother with it.

ryzaadit

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Quote from: TimeTeller on May 04, 2022, 06:08:08 PM

-snip-

Ah yes SportBook, is a good option.

However, even LiveGames still can be manipulated for the RTP. Example playing "Blakcjack", If you remove 1-3 card is already change the RTP. But, we all don't know about the fairness of the deck even the game is live.

So, is really hard to be tracked.

khaled0111

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Please someone more experienced with cryptography and maths correct me if am wrong but I think if a slot game uses a provably fair algorithm and the game provider publish this algorithm then anyone can not only verify each bet result but also calculate the rtp of that game.
According to my experience, verifying pf slot games results is usually more complicated than for other games such as dice, crash or roulette.

Quote from: swogerino on May 04, 2022, 03:18:32 AM

I would also love to see this,most game providers say just "high volatility or medium volatility" slot and based on this the RTP sure is a fixed one for example at 96.75% but that happens only during a certain period of time and we cannot check in real time the RTP

AFAIK, there is a difference between the game volatility and its rtp. Two games may have the same rtp but one with high volatility and the other with low or medium volatility.

TimeTeller

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Quote from: DoublerHunter on May 04, 2022, 05:58:20 PM

Quote from: ryzaadit on May 04, 2022, 03:54:04 PM

IMO all of these things are really hard.

All you can do, is believe in the provider/casino. Because there is no way we can check RTP, is really the same or not also since this is about gambling their source code is private. If not wrong, in Bitcointalk some casino caught a cheater slot.

IDK, how he do it but is really real. If you worried about this, then "Live Games" is solution rather than Slot.

^ That is right, there is nothing we can do is to trust the casino provider about real-time and actual RTP and trust the system that they provided which is claiming that they have a fair system. At the end, still on the casino behavior of not scamming people the ends and probably that is how their reputation will keep. If we have doubt, sports bet and live betting were totally right for you because you can witness it in a real time.

That is correct, we are only relying on casino's reputation when it comes to RTP.
Because we can't verify this factor and if you are too worried about this.
As DoublerHunter said, just go for sports betting. At least you know, the bookie won't screw you because the results is out of their hands.

DoublerHunter

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Quote from: ryzaadit on May 04, 2022, 03:54:04 PM

IMO all of these things are really hard.

All you can do, is believe in the provider/casino. Because there is no way we can check RTP, is really the same or not also since this is about gambling their source code is private. If not wrong, in Bitcointalk some casino caught a cheater slot.

IDK, how he do it but is really real. If you worried about this, then "Live Games" is solution rather than Slot.

^ That is right, there is nothing we can do is to trust the casino provider about real-time and actual RTP and trust the system that they provided which is claiming that they have a fair system. At the end, still on the casino behavior of not scamming people the ends and probably that is how their reputation will keep. If we have doubt, sports bet and live betting were totally right for you because you can witness it in a real time.

Synchronice

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Quote from: Kakmakr on May 04, 2022, 01:25:52 AM

We live in times where almost everything is possible with software these days, but I have not seen any Casino having code that shows in real-time what the actual RTP is for ALL their games.

You will go to a site and you will click through several steps to find the RTP, but the RTP is simply the advertised RTP for that game. The latest Slots have multiple RTP settings for the same Slots (eg Hacksaw Games) and you never know on which RTP that Slot is running.

Can Software developers not write "Provably fair" code.. to enable people to click on a option in the game to "test" the actual RTP of the Slot at that given moment?

There are a lot of discussions in casino chats and forums on casinos hiding the actual RTP for their games and the RTP and Variance being adjusted in real-time to "feed" during certain periods. A provably fair system to check this will build more trust and it will also reduce frustration and negativity from gamblers on these platforms.

You have provably fair systems to check the bets, but we do not have provably fair systems to check the real-time RTP being used by the casinos. Roll Eyes

It seems, that you and some people here don't really know how the things work in case of both, online and real life casinos. Online casino is not a business where you buy the script from a shady guy and run installed script on cheap Hetzner servers.

Licensed online casinos are constantly and strictly audited to ensure that the whole gambling process is fair and safe for gamblers. I don't know if it's general or not but I can certainly say that in some countries there are laws where casinos can't lower the RPT under a certain limit, in Europe casinos are very well regulated. Every single process is tested and the results are submitted to the gaming commission, they can retest anything anytime and it should prove the previous fairness.

ryzaadit

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IMO all of these things are really hard.

All you can do, is believe in the provider/casino. Because there is no way we can check RTP, is really the same or not also since this is about gambling their source code is private. If not wrong, in Bitcointalk some casino caught a cheater slot.

IDK, how he do it but is really real. If you worried about this, then "Live Games" is solution rather than Slot.

kaya11

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Quote from: yayayo on May 04, 2022, 03:57:43 AM

Quote from: Eternad on May 04, 2022, 03:11:39 AM

Quote from: zidanw on May 04, 2022, 02:36:03 AM

We wouldn't want to trouble ourselves to check and calculate after we play but I think there are reputable game providers that wouldn't cheat on their players am I right? since if the player proved that they have lower RTP than what they advertise they will only back fires to them and lose players.

The majority of game providers is reputable since they have all software license for many years. I believe the OP has a valid point but I doubt if game provider can give that details since they will need to show the code of there game just to show everything is transparent since that’s the only way for us to verify if they are using a proper RTP per bet. Game provider is centralized and not an open source unlike most of the decentralized games that based on hash seed for the result. I would really like this idea but this means that there work can be copy easily.

Even if they are reputable we are still unsure whether they deliver the right RTP or not since only them can verify it. So it is either you trust them or not that is up to you, that's why I only play sports betting and in-house casino games to make sure that it is fair and I can verify it.

ya.ya.yo!

Is there other way to verify it without showing the codes? Like 3rd party or government agency to prove that they deliver right RTP? I hope there could be one so that no worries in behalf of the players. Maybe that way they won't lose much and even get more regulars on their site.

ipanks

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I never thought about Provably Fair deeply because I realized that gambling is a business created to provide big profits for its owners. We may be able to validate that Provably Fair but of course, it will take some time before we know that the casino is Fair. If so, it will return to our original purpose in playing gambling. If we play gambling just to look for fun, we don't have to think about Provably Fair and just play. Even though the casinos are proven to be fraudulent, we still have other casinos that we can use to gamble. Think for a moment what is your reason for playing gambling.

seoincorporation

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Quote from: Kakmakr on May 04, 2022, 01:25:52 AM

You have provably fair systems to check the bets, but we do not have provably fair systems to check the real-time RTP being used by the casinos. Roll Eyes

Calculating the RTP in real-time is something complex because there are a lot of bets on each game each second, and the result of that bet manipulates the RTP, since we don't have access to that data we can't calculate the RTP by ourselves or in a Provably fair way.

The best option is to use a service provided by the casinos to see the live RTP of each slot:

https://slots.io/live-rtp
https://bitcasino.io/es/live-rtp
https://sportsbet.io/casino/live-rtp

Eternad

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Quote from: yayayo on May 04, 2022, 03:57:43 AM

Quote from: Eternad on May 04, 2022, 03:11:39 AM

Quote from: zidanw on May 04, 2022, 02:36:03 AM

We wouldn't want to trouble ourselves to check and calculate after we play but I think there are reputable game providers that wouldn't cheat on their players am I right? since if the player proved that they have lower RTP than what they advertise they will only back fires to them and lose players.

The majority of game providers is reputable since they have all software license for many years. I believe the OP has a valid point but I doubt if game provider can give that details since they will need to show the code of there game just to show everything is transparent since that’s the only way for us to verify if they are using a proper RTP per bet. Game provider is centralized and not an open source unlike most of the decentralized games that based on hash seed for the result. I would really like this idea but this means that there work can be copy easily.

Even if they are reputable we are still unsure whether they deliver the right RTP or not since only them can verify it. So it is either you trust them or not that is up to you, that's why I only play sports betting and in-house casino games to make sure that it is fair and I can verify it.

ya.ya.yo!

This is where trust play important role on playing and choosing slot provider. You have the option to choose what slot provider to use that we trust before we play so it’s up to the player discretion on how they will trust the slots RTP since there’s no way to verify it besides slots exist for so many years without any clear RTP issue.

fiulpro

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Quote from: zidanw on May 04, 2022, 02:36:03 AM

We wouldn't want to trouble ourselves to check and calculate after we play but I think there are reputable game providers that wouldn't cheat on their players am I right? since if the player proved that they have lower RTP than what they advertise they will only back fire to them and lose players.

Most of the time the players do not even bother checking the RTP for every game at the end of the day they bounce from one casino to the other and they also do trust the casino name straightforwardly.

Also checking the RTP after every game is not practical or even convenient. RTP is also a very variable thing which every casino has a minimum requirement but due to competition, it surges up in some casinos. We can't judge them before as analyse all the data ourselves also what if the data is stored incorrectly as well? Some sites don't have anything to do with it but if they have good RTP settings and the players are able to analyze it freely they would themselves get more players! It's all about pay back and profit.

Topic: Provably fair RTP ? - page 2. (Read 465 times)