Topic: Pump and dump. (Read 3198 times)

I don't think it was so much "bots" that manulipiate the market but rather misinformation.

I remember there was so many forged IRC chat logs on reddit around when Gox suspended withdrawals but did not file for bankruptcy yet.

Yep...total Goxcoin market was driven by bots, whilst bots trading on the solvent exchanges still responded to action on Gox. This meant that Karpeles could use Willy to drive the real Bitcoin market around, which I suspect he did. I suspect that Karpeles was the 10K whale who came to Stamp on eve of crash to $400 and tricked the bots on Stamp into eating into around 6K BTC worth of his 10K limit order, as the bot traders furiously bought Bitcoin due to Stamp being undervalued in comparison with BTC-e, Bitfinex, Huobi etc, which had corrected and then ramped due to Gox crashing and then ramping right up. Due to 10K Ask wall, Stamp got stuck some $30-$40 dollars beneath spot price of the other exchanges so the bots kept buying and buying into the 10K Ask wall at $579. Two days later, Bitcoin crashed down to $400.

All of the crypto markets are subject to massive market manulipation.

Just look at what happened when GOX was failing and the GOXcoins were trading on bitcoinbuilders website.

Which proves why bitcoin can be superior.  Laws and fees are different everywhere, sometimes even within the same country.  It's very easy to get confused and overwhelmed.  With bitcoin we know there is a 1-way fee, and we know it is very small.  We don't have to speculate on what or if you're subject to fee's, with bitcoin we just know.  How many crazy laws, 'miscellaneous' fees, and hoops do you have to jump through when sending money to someone else? That's not even considering how slow it is, and the fact that banks in the US close very early on Saturday, and are completely closed on Sunday.

Bitcoin is a very good way to transfer value.  Obviously converting to fiat might be subject to slippage between BTC / your local currency, but that slippage will continue to decrease with time.

I am in Scotland.

My German bank account it is with DKB. And SEPA transfers occur for me same day, and cost nothing. I have no idea if I get charged a fee for my German bank account or not. In the UK, we do not get charged fees, but perhaps on the continent things are a little different. Certainly, the interest I get paid on my German account is actually 'noticeable'.

Hello mat,

Im from germany too and i must disagree, even internal bank transfers (to the same bank different location/town) takes atleast 2 days... im doing several transfers per week. Also if you want an instant sepa transfer for 1000 € it cost you around 40-50 € ! Im have my account at the volksbank btw

Greetings

Edit: there are no fees though for a normal bank transfer, but i think we are already paying it with the yearly bank account fee that cost around 25-30 €

The face value advantage is that I'm not waiting 4 days to send payment to someone. Currently I have a national bank transfer equivalent to $2500 pending from this Friday night that will most likely be completed Monday afternoon. This is one of the face values advantage of using Bitcoin and as soon as more services/individuals start to accept it the better for all of us.

Now, my main underline argument in favor of Bitcoin is that no one can print more money than it has been set which helps create a healthy economic environment in which businesses success is based on what they're actually producing not on speculating value and if they fail they won't be bailed out using public cash, like Goldman and Citigroup were in 2008 with absolutely no consequences just some bonus cuts. That is unacceptable and of course it won't happen in an Bitcoin environment if it'll ever be adopted by country in 50-100 years.
This feeling will become more and more stronger whenever a bank crisis will occur and most likely by 2016 we'll be part of another catastrophe with many many lives affected and soon the people will smarten up and realize that the problem can only be solved by changing the system from scratch not simply by adding more rules. The current monetary system is broken so hard that the only thing we can do is start from scratch and implement a better solution. The current btc-$ price speculation is unfortunate but don't let that blind you from the real improvement that Bitcoin can bring to our society if we'll choose to accept it.

You tried to spread FUD and Failed at spreading FUD
Try harder next time OP

I get the feeling that I, and the others who have responded to your relentless tin drum banging about Bitcoin's supposed advantages in sending funds across the world, are speaking to a brick wall.

I don't know where you are in the world. But say you wanted to send me Funds of say $10K in value. Explain to me one single advantage of using Bitcoin instead of the various other cash transfer methods and I will tell you why you are wrong. Please don't bleat on about 10-60 minute transfer times and tiny fees, because remember, I in the UK still need to turn that Bitcoin into physical or digital cash that I can spend. So tell me, what are the advantages of using Bitcoin, presuming that I don't care if the transaction is traceable or not?

Sepa is based on your domestic fee for your particular bank, SEPA is not free across European Union

really same day ? must be nice for you, I wish I was with a bank that works during weekends.

That could be it I suppose. If so, a worthwhile tradeoff. Our Great Leaders tried to switch us to euro 3 times. We voted no every time until they stopped trying, and sentiment polls have remained negative.

Right.

I have a UK bank account and a German bank account.

To send via SEPA using my German bank account, it is same day, and costs nothing.

To send via SEPA using my UK bank account, it costs me around 4% premium on the total I sent if I want it there next banking day. This is fucking expensive true enough, which is why I get money onto Bitstamp (or I used to do it b4 Bitstamp started requesting anal probes), by sending funds to my German account via Transferwise (0.5%) fees or less if I am prepared to wait, and then transfer the funds from my German account to Bitstamp for free using SEPA. I don't use Transferwise or any of the other cheaper money transfer options to fund Bitstamp account directly, because they are prohibited from allowing transfers to Bitcoin exchanges.

I cannot think of any possible circumstances where it would be too my advantage to send Bitcoin other than Fiat currency to anyone abroad. For any currency in any developed or economically powerful nation, Transferwise or similar services can be used to send funds from as little as 0.25% fees. For sending funds to some 3rd world nation, what fkn good is Bitcoin going to be to anyone in Tanzania anyway? Even if there was a means of exchanging the Bitcoin, for Fiat that can actually be spent, the premiums would be fucking horrendous.

In the UK you can bank transfer yourself stupid and it costs absolutely nothing. It arrives within the minute usually too. I'm not sure if my bank does SEPA but any transfer abroad is still pretty expensive.

SEPA was designed to lower transfer fees between european countries to those of domestic national transfers which are not free, even same bank to bank transfer has a fee in place so I really don't know which bank you're using with free transfers. Also 4 days is not fast(friday, sat, sunday, monday) unless you live before 18th century when money was moved using horse carriages, in those times 4 days is pretty fast I agree.

Denmark. They have been introducing ridiculous fees lately, dunno what it used to be. Also regular savings accounts get 0% interest. Zero. Not 0.025% like we used to, nothing.

These are my observations. I have been 'working with it', but have limited myself to around 50% of the potential total upside that has been offer so far, due to anticipating 'the correction', which never seems to come, no matter how frail and weak the buying pressure seems to get.

True, had I just held, then I would have had around 90% of the upside (my initial buy-in was at $460), but then again, if I was a holder, then I would still be underwater to this day, if I hadn't already cracked and done a 'Veronica', which I probably would have.

what country are you in? SEPA was designed to be fast and free for all participating countries (EU+CH)

Even supposing you are right about all that. Why not work with it instead of endlessly complain about it?

I sent a SEPA payment on friday night, fees were included, the receiver has to wait till monday afternoon or tuesday to receive it. Using bitcoin that would've be done in minutes depending on first confirmation, and if i have no time schedule I could send the btc transfer with no fees which will last couple of hours for the receiver to get it, with no costs. One word: evolution

He doesn't have to sell BTC back at a net loss. He uses his buying power to engineer those very positive BUY indicators that you mention. For example. Place a 2K Bitcoin wall right at a major resistance point. If there are a few panic sells at the Ask Wall, buffer the Bid wall up enough to absorb the selling pressure from all the little fishies looking to lock in profits. That way, the less twitchy little fishies will see that Bitcoin isn't going to fall and will hold. When market settles, Whales then move buffer pressure in Bid wall increasingly further up towards spot, so as to form an ascending triangle against the resistance price. AT some point, the whale might take away his 2K Ask wall and see if the little fishies start panic buying way up past the resistance point. Or he might simply buy up his own wall, resulting in a huge volume spike which will then ensure that the little fishies start panic buying, thus driving the prices up. The whales doesn't take a net loss. The whale uses his buying power to engineer the market into bidding the price up which in turn increases his net value. As I have said, I suppose the desired end game might be another stampede of fresh capital piling into Bitcoin. Then the whales can really cash in before they let the market fall, by selling their coin into the stampede of new capital and ceasing to support Bitcoin with their buying power.

Exchange fees from the continual swishing of BTC and fiat between accounts?

I am sure the very biggest players are on very good terms with the exchanges, and we now know that Karpeles had fee free accounts on MtGox through which 'Willy' and 'Markus' would ramp the price. But this is the market. It may be hooky but the fact is that their are certain forces at work just now intent on ramping Bitcoin up. Only they will know when the saturation point has come or when it is no longer prudent to ramp.

It is a highly engineered market. PHACT!