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Topic: Re: Bye bye bitcoin (Split: Morality of Bitcoin vs. Fiat Discussion) - page 4. (Read 5277 times)

sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
Considering that inflation is a shell game, transferring wealth rather than inherently creating or destroying it, do you think that the majority benefits from inflation? Do you even feel that a large minority benefits?

I think there are a small proportion of people whose savings vastly exceed their debts, and massively more people whose debts exceed their savings, or who are roughly neutral.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
Quote from: westkybitcoins
If Bob approaches Alice and *forces* her to accept his IOUs in exchange for her goods and services, and to use them in her dealings with others

You are not forced to accept fiat currency for goods and services you provide, only for settlement of debts.
And you are not forced to use fiat currency to buy goods and services from others.

What do governments pay their soldiers, contractors and employees in? What do they pay tax returns, SS and other non-employee obligations in?

When purchase orders for tanks and ammunition (or staples and printer ink) are issued, what will be spent?

None of which has anything to do with whether you are forced to accept fiat for your goods and services. You aren't. You just don't get to sell tanks to the government, because you can't force them to pay in a currency you want.
If you are selling something I want, and only accept Bitcoin as payment, my options are either to pay in Bitcoin or not buy, I cannot force you to accept payment in fiat.
legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1004
Firstbits: Compromised. Thanks, Android!
Quote from: westkybitcoins
If Bob approaches Alice and *forces* her to accept his IOUs in exchange for her goods and services, and to use them in her dealings with others

You are not forced to accept fiat currency for goods and services you provide, only for settlement of debts.
And you are not forced to use fiat currency to buy goods and services from others.

What do governments pay their soldiers, contractors and employees in? What do they pay tax returns, SS and other non-employee obligations in?

When purchase orders for tanks and ammunition (or staples and printer ink) are issued, what will be spent?

(The reference to her 'dealings with others' is a reference to the 'settlement of debts' portion.)


Quote
Quote
But it also resulted in the loss of quite a significant portion of your wealth through inflation over just the last few decades.

Actually, like very many people, inflation has increased my overall worth, as I had more mortgage debt that savings, and that debt was also inflated away.

Hmm.

"like very many people"

Considering that inflation is a shell game, transferring wealth rather than inherently creating or destroying it, do you think that the majority benefits from inflation? Do you even feel that a large minority benefits?

If not, again presuming your inflationary gains via mortgage debt were enough to more than offset your inflation losses elsewhere, aren't you kind of admitting that you're simply one of the lucky ones who benefited? After all, it's not as if its possible for everyone to benefit from inflation if they all just take the same actions you did.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
You are not forced to accept fiat currency for goods and services you provide, only for settlement of debts.
And you are not forced to use fiat currency to buy goods and services from others.
I wouldn't be so sure. Liberty dollar's history shows that US government doesn't like competition.

Quote from: Wikipedia
In May 2009, von NotHaus and others were charged with federal crimes in connection with the Liberty Dollar and, on July 31, 2009, von NotHaus announced that he had closed the Liberty Dollar operation, pending resolution of the criminal charges. On March 18, 2011, von NotHaus was pronounced guilty of "making, possessing, and selling his own currency".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Dollar

I'm sure this has come up before, and the conclusion was that you cannot create your own coins.
You can create your own notes, as long as there is no intent/risk of confusion with 'real' money.
legendary
Activity: 896
Merit: 1000
Bitcoin will fade away eventually. It will take awhile but its inevitable.

Correct, but only with something to replace it. And then its goes to <$10 adjusted for inflation.
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis

Sure they do! Holding a Dollar note does NOT give me a claim to any of that however Sad


you can say that for bitcoin too.

Of course but
a) nobody profits from the inflation in Bitcoin
b) the inflation is outside the control of any party which could game it to their advantage
c) nobody is forced to used Bitcoin.  If someone doesn't see a value proposistion they can simply choose not to participate

None of those are true with national fiat currencies.
member
Activity: 98
Merit: 10
Bitcoin will fade away eventually. It will take awhile but its inevitable.
donator
Activity: 2772
Merit: 1019
Printing money is theft and therefore fiat money is inherently immoral.
This cannot be repeated enough. It's the biggest scam on Earth and it's hidden in plain sight!
Repetition does not make a false statement true.
Following your logic, if I buy a TV set and the producer makes just one more unit, you consider that act "theft".

In hindsight (after reading the page of thread following the page the quote is from), I realize I should've said: "Printing fiat money is theft and therefore fiat money is inherently immoral."

Yes, it's the partial removal of scarcity that constitutes the act of theft, not the production of the units. Otherwise mining bitcoins would be immoral.

sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
This argument is hilarious. The pro-fiat guy is great.  Grin Grin Grin

2% debt growth for every 1% GDP growth, yeah that's totally progress! Hahaha. Praise Ford for fiat.


Average lifespan of a fiat currency: 30 years

Current lifespan of USD (in its truly unbacked, unconvertible, wholly fiat form) 42 years

Now that's one outlier that's gonna get fucked.
legendary
Activity: 1330
Merit: 1000
Bitcoin
My last bitcoin finally sold! It's a relief. Bitcoin is doomed to fail. It has a price, but it has no value. It has made a few people rich, but most people shall loose. A currency? It is only speculation and nothing more. Bitcoin has not and will not become a real medium for exchange. What remains for bitcoin now is the large holders to sell out their coins, but in a tempo that does not crash the 'market'. It will be interesting to see how bitcoin's decline plays out. Good luck, either buying or selling, but if you do the former, you need it most.

Take a hike and I'll take your coins now!  Grin
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
Quote from: westkybitcoins
If Bob approaches Alice and *forces* her to accept his IOUs in exchange for her goods and services, and to use them in her dealings with others

You are not forced to accept fiat currency for goods and services you provide, only for settlement of debts.
And you are not forced to use fiat currency to buy goods and services from others.

Quote
But it also resulted in the loss of quite a significant portion of your wealth through inflation over just the last few decades.

Actually, like very many people, inflation has increased my overall worth, as I had more mortgage debt that savings, and that debt was also inflated away.
legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1004
Firstbits: Compromised. Thanks, Android!
First of all, we're not talking about whether it's moral or immoral to be forced to use a currency. We're talking about whether it's theft or not.
It's theft precisely because society is coerced into using it as money. That's the linchpin making the scam work.
I can tell you about a few fiat currencies that are not forced on people and that are commonly used.
The USD is one of them, the EUR another. In many countries across the world, it may even be illegal to use them, but they are used nonetheless.
Or how about a privately issued fiat currency that's accepted and traded worldwide? Think Bonus Miles.


Ok, I think a clarification is in order.

You seem to be using the term 'fiat' to mean 'unbacked.'
The rest of us are using the term 'fiat' to mean the official definition: "a formal authorization or proposition; a decree". Money forced on you by people with the power to compel you.

Considering that the first usage also covers bitcoin itself, perhaps we'd be better served by keeping to the second usage?


Noone forces you to hold any currency, as far as I'm aware of U.S. legislation. That you are required to settle your taxes in USD is no more a hassle than the need for buying stamps if you want to use the U.S. postal service.
- No one HAS to mail a letter via the USPS. You can use UPS or Fedex (at prices above a governmentally-mandated minimum, anyway.) If you work to live, as most of us do, you MUST send your FRNs to the federal government.
 - No one is forced to accept postage stamps as "legal tender for all debts, public and private."
 - No company pays their employees in postage stamps; or does business in stamps, thus incurring the burden of converting them to FRNs to pay their employees.
[...]
I repeat: no one forces you to hold any currency, as far as I know.
That you're required to use it for a short period of time when it comes to settle your bills, is an inconvenience, no more, no less.

I'm sorry, but that's absurd.

When the coercion to use the money is that pervasive (and invasive,) people will also hold onto stashes of it. That's just human nature. And the people who make use of this scam know it.


The nitpicking would be fine if we actually didn't see the distinction, or if it made a difference. What's being pointed out to you is that for all practical purposes, the distinction is irrelevant.
Okay, the nitpicking part is actually that "fiat is not theft".
It could be considered coercion, when you're forced to use it.
It could be considered fraud, if someone actually made a promise about its value and devalues it later on (but in reality, no one makes such a promise).

The coercion makes it theft.

If Bob approaches Alice and *forces* her to accept his IOUs in exchange for her goods and services, and to use them in her dealings with others, then produces and distributes so many more IOUs that the ones Alice has are only worth a tiny fraction of their original value, you can argue all you want about how it's not theft but when he's locked up like a common thug for it, most of society will have little sympathy for him.

To argue that it's not theft because she didn't trade the IOUs off to Chuck quickly enough completely ignores the real issue, doesn't change the nature of Bob's actions, and is a pretty disturbing sentiment for someone to express.


Would just using a new word work for you? How about we call the scam "inflatascrew"? When referring to fiat shenanigans, we'll just tell everyone, "losing wealth occurs because you're being 'inflatascrewed' by your government. It's pretty much the same as being stolen from, but with these distinctions..." Surely that would satisfy your desire for semantic accuracy--because it's not as if the real issue is that you feel being stolen from this way is totally acceptable, and the whole nitpick is a distraction from that, right?
Let's just assume for a moment that I'm not nitpicking, but I actually disagree.
Fiat is a really good concept. I've used fiat all my life and it served me quite well. So did all the people I know.

Just because we like Bitcoin that much more today should not make us spread FUD about competition.

Fiat, as defined by the second usage above, is NOT a good concept. You say it has served you and everyone you know quite well. I'd argue it has served you all abysmally.

Sure, you could make use of it. It was *functional*. It had to at least be that for the scam to work. But it also resulted in the loss of quite a significant portion of your wealth through inflation over just the last few decades. Worse, it didn't just cause that wealth to evaporate, it enabled the theft of that wealth by insiders who quite literally profited at your expense. I can only imagine you feel fiat has served you well because you've never had the real option of living in a (well-off) society that didn't revolve around it. And of course, those profiting from it would like to keep it that way.

Acknowledging the ills of fiat is hardly FUD. There's a reason 2008 happened and that the global economy is still on shaky ground. There's a reason depositors in Cyprus had a portion of their money directly stolen from their bank accounts, an action being seriously discussed now in other parts of Europe. What else would one expect to happen when a minority is granted the ability to steal from entire societies using a scheme that not only reduces the incentive to save and produce, but that's mathematically unsustainable in the first place?

Avoiding all that nonsense is kinda the entire point of Bitcoin.
legendary
Activity: 1246
Merit: 1000
Oh please that's basic stuff and we all know about fractional reserve banking already. I'm not some uneducated ignorant fool you know. And it doesn't refute what I wrote earlier, the fact that banks lend out stuff they don't actually have. Just think about it, perhaps you will come to the same conclusion as me and many others already have.
If you find yourself with majority, rethink.

The bank has this "stuff".
In any common meaning of the word you could possibly think of.
They posses, have, hold, own, received, the money they lend.
They may not be the proprietor, but that's not necessary.

Here watch this and learn something yourself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqvKjsIxT_8
qwk
donator
Activity: 3542
Merit: 3413
Shitcoin Minimalist
Oh please that's basic stuff and we all know about fractional reserve banking already. I'm not some uneducated ignorant fool you know. And it doesn't refute what I wrote earlier, the fact that banks lend out stuff they don't actually have. Just think about it, perhaps you will come to the same conclusion as me and many others already have.
If you find yourself with majority, rethink.

The bank has this "stuff".
In any common meaning of the word you could possibly think of.
They posses, have, hold, own, received, the money they lend.
They may not be the proprietor, but that's not necessary.
legendary
Activity: 1246
Merit: 1000
I would if I was actually able to lend someone something I didn't actually have. This is what banks do.
No. That's not how the process of money creation by lending works.
But that's exactly how it works. You don't fool me anymore I am fully aware of how the system works nowadays. Smiley
I just googled for a second and came up with this, it should help you understand:
http://money.howstuffworks.com/personal-finance/banking/bank1.htm

Oh please that's basic stuff and we all know about fractional reserve banking already. I'm not some uneducated ignorant fool you know. And it doesn't refute what I wrote earlier, the fact that banks lend out stuff they don't actually have. Just think about it, perhaps you will come to the same conclusion as me and many others already have. Smiley
qwk
donator
Activity: 3542
Merit: 3413
Shitcoin Minimalist
I would if I was actually able to lend someone something I didn't actually have. This is what banks do.
No. That's not how the process of money creation by lending works.
But that's exactly how it works. You don't fool me anymore I am fully aware of how the system works nowadays. Smiley
I just googled for a second and came up with this, it should help you understand:
http://money.howstuffworks.com/personal-finance/banking/bank1.htm
qwk
donator
Activity: 3542
Merit: 3413
Shitcoin Minimalist
Fiat currency, unbacked by some commodity with utility/value, is the most silly thing ever.
Actually, it was a great idea that is still considered by the majority of economists to be one of the more important factors in the economic progress of modern civilization.
By Keynesians, you mean.  Roll Eyes
When it comes to fiat money, I don't see many Non-Keynesians argue as well.
There are economists who criticize fiat, but I tend to see them with minority. But I won't argue about that, because I don't really have numbers to back that claim.


First of all, we're not talking about whether it's moral or immoral to be forced to use a currency. We're talking about whether it's theft or not.
It's theft precisely because society is coerced into using it as money. That's the linchpin making the scam work.
I can tell you about a few fiat currencies that are not forced on people and that are commonly used.
The USD is one of them, the EUR another. In many countries across the world, it may even be illegal to use them, but they are used nonetheless.
Or how about a privately issued fiat currency that's accepted and traded worldwide? Think Bonus Miles.


Noone forces you to hold any currency, as far as I'm aware of U.S. legislation. That you are required to settle your taxes in USD is no more a hassle than the need for buying stamps if you want to use the U.S. postal service.
- No one HAS to mail a letter via the USPS. You can use UPS or Fedex (at prices above a governmentally-mandated minimum, anyway.) If you work to live, as most of us do, you MUST send your FRNs to the federal government.
 - No one is forced to accept postage stamps as "legal tender for all debts, public and private."
 - No company pays their employees in postage stamps; or does business in stamps, thus incurring the burden of converting them to FRNs to pay their employees.
[...]
I repeat: no one forces you to hold any currency, as far as I know.
That you're required to use it for a short period of time when it comes to settle your bills, is an inconvenience, no more, no less.
 

The nitpicking would be fine if we actually didn't see the distinction, or if it made a difference. What's being pointed out to you is that for all practical purposes, the distinction is irrelevant.
Okay, the nitpicking part is actually that "fiat is not theft".
It could be considered coercion, when you're forced to use it.
It could be considered fraud, if someone actually made a promise about its value and devalues it later on (but in reality, no one makes such a promise).


Would just using a new word work for you? How about we call the scam "inflatascrew"? When referring to fiat shenanigans, we'll just tell everyone, "losing wealth occurs because you're being 'inflatascrewed' by your government. It's pretty much the same as being stolen from, but with these distinctions..." Surely that would satisfy your desire for semantic accuracy--because it's not as if the real issue is that you feel being stolen from this way is totally acceptable, and the whole nitpick is a distraction from that, right?
Let's just assume for a moment that I'm not nitpicking, but I actually disagree.
Fiat is a really good concept. I've used fiat all my life and it served me quite well. So did all the people I know.

Just because we like Bitcoin that much more today should not make us spread FUD about competition.
legendary
Activity: 1246
Merit: 1000
If your central bank issues more money or banks (or you, for that matter) create money by the process of lending, this is not theft. It's part of the utility of fiat money.
Let me put it like this: would you say it's okay for me to call you a thief if you lend someone a bitcoin?

I would if I was actually able to lend someone something I didn't actually have. This is what banks do.
No. That's not how the process of money creation by lending works.

But that's exactly how it works. You don't fool me anymore I am fully aware of how the system works nowadays. Smiley

Give me the power to print paper fiat for free and I will lend it to you at interest, no problem. Tongue
This is not the way the FED or the ECB work.
I know that it is easy to believe that Ben Bernanke just "fires up the printing press" and produces Dollar banknotes, but even though that might actually happen, printing paper money is largely insignificant compared to e.g. setting the federal funds rate or quantitative easing.

I'm not just talking about what Ben Bernanke or the ECB does, I am talking about how all banks and their lending in general works. If you think this is how economy progresses or should progress, I can only laugh out loud and wish you good luck with that. I however will have no part of this screwed up economy anymore, and will talk to your kind again in a decade or so from now. Smiley
legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1004
Firstbits: Compromised. Thanks, Android!
Fiat currency, unbacked by some commodity with utility/value, is the most silly thing ever.
Actually, it was a great idea that is still considered by the majority of economists to be one of the more important factors in the economic progress of modern civilization.

By Keynesians, you mean.  Roll Eyes


The underlying issue (which molecular and wachtwoord probably should've noted explicitly, since you apparently missed it) is that citizens are forced, through threat of prison (ie, violence), to use currency that gets debased. If that were not the case, there wouldn't be anything immoral about it, and it would be analogous to a company, whose stock you own, issuing more shares.
First of all, we're not talking about whether it's moral or immoral to be forced to use a currency. We're talking about whether it's theft or not.

.....

It's theft precisely because society is coerced into using it as money. That's the linchpin making the scam work.


But we're forced to use these currencies through the requirement that we pay taxes in them (and other legal tender laws), so when we get diluted, we lose value/property.
Noone forces you to hold any currency, as far as I'm aware of U.S. legislation. That you are required to settle your taxes in USD is no more a hassle than the need for buying stamps if you want to use the U.S. postal service.

Except that:

 - No one HAS to mail a letter via the USPS. You can use UPS or Fedex (at prices above a governmentally-mandated minimum, anyway.) If you work to live, as most of us do, you MUST send your FRNs to the federal government.
 - No one is forced to accept postage stamps as "legal tender for all debts, public and private."
 - No company pays their employees in postage stamps; or does business in stamps, thus incurring the burden of converting them to FRNs to pay their employees.
 - No one is forced through threat of war to purchase oil with postage stamps.
 - No one working for the federal, state or local governments of the U.S. is going to be paid in postage stamps.
 - Government contracts aren't settled in postage stamps.
 - Etc.

The nitpicking would be fine if we actually didn't see the distinction, or if it made a difference. What's being pointed out to you is that for all practical purposes, the distinction is irrelevant.

Would just using a new word work for you? How about we call the scam "inflatascrew"? When referring to fiat shenanigans, we'll just tell everyone, "losing wealth occurs because you're being 'inflatascrewed' by your government. It's pretty much the same as being stolen from, but with these distinctions..." Surely that would satisfy your desire for semantic accuracy--because it's not as if the real issue is that you feel being stolen from this way is totally acceptable, and the whole nitpick is a distraction from that, right?
qwk
donator
Activity: 3542
Merit: 3413
Shitcoin Minimalist
If your central bank issues more money or banks (or you, for that matter) create money by the process of lending, this is not theft. It's part of the utility of fiat money.
Let me put it like this: would you say it's okay for me to call you a thief if you lend someone a bitcoin?

I would if I was actually able to lend someone something I didn't actually have. This is what banks do.
No. That's not how the process of money creation by lending works.


Give me the power to print paper fiat for free and I will lend it to you at interest, no problem. Tongue
This is not the way the FED or the ECB work.
I know that it is easy to believe that Ben Bernanke just "fires up the printing press" and produces Dollar banknotes, but even though that might actually happen, printing paper money is largely insignificant compared to e.g. setting the federal funds rate or quantitative easing.
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