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Topic: Re: Bye bye bitcoin (Split: Morality of Bitcoin vs. Fiat Discussion) - page 5. (Read 5277 times)

hero member
Activity: 624
Merit: 500
So many people hee complaing about the problem of diluted values, no backing etc. This is not a problem unless you have a lot of cash. Then go change it into stcks or bitcoins or whatever. And use cash only for exchange of goods. Problem solved.

I would absolutely love to own stocks, etc., denominated in Bitcoin.  Stocks, etc., denominated in USD are vulnerable to arbitrary devaluation.
me too. unfortunately i don't trust these fly-by-night bitcoin stock exchanges. just wouldn't feel secure. it's too bad.  Undecided
hero member
Activity: 709
Merit: 503
So many people hee complaing about the problem of diluted values, no backing etc. This is not a problem unless you have a lot of cash. Then go change it into stcks or bitcoins or whatever. And use cash only for exchange of goods. Problem solved.

I would absolutely love to own stocks, etc., denominated in Bitcoin.  Stocks, etc., denominated in USD are vulnerable to arbitrary devaluation.  Hmm, or would the share price tend to go up to compensate?
legendary
Activity: 1246
Merit: 1000
If your central bank issues more money or banks (or you, for that matter) create money by the process of lending, this is not theft. It's part of the utility of fiat money.
Let me put it like this: would you say it's okay for me to call you a thief if you lend someone a bitcoin?

I would if I was actually able to lend someone something I didn't actually have. This is what banks do. Give me the power to print paper fiat for free and I will lend it to you at interest, no problem. Tongue
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002
Do you mean the kind of economic progress where every 1% of GDP growth is accompanied by 2% growth in debt?  I fail to see how that is progress...
qwk
donator
Activity: 3542
Merit: 3413
Shitcoin Minimalist
For something which represents no value or utility whatsoever besides its scarcity (e.g. fiat money and Bitcoin) making more of it IS theft as it effectively reduces the only benefit it has. This is not true for a tv set which does have utility.
Fiat money is not useful because of scarcity (although it can be). It is useful because it can be used as money.
But you're right about the TV, it is devalued a little less than your USD banknote if they produce more. It is devalued, though.

Let me repeat:
Fiat currency, unbacked by some commodity with utility/value, is the most silly thing ever.
Actually, it was a great idea that is still considered by the majority of economists to be one of the more important factors in the economic progress of modern civilization.



The underlying issue (which molecular and wachtwoord probably should've noted explicitly, since you apparently missed it) is that citizens are forced, through threat of prison (ie, violence), to use currency that gets debased. If that were not the case, there wouldn't be anything immoral about it, and it would be analogous to a company, whose stock you own, issuing more shares.
First of all, we're not talking about whether it's moral or immoral to be forced to use a currency. We're talking about whether it's theft or not.


But we're forced to use these currencies through the requirement that we pay taxes in them (and other legal tender laws), so when we get diluted, we lose value/property.
Noone forces you to hold any currency, as far as I'm aware of U.S. legislation. That you are required to settle your taxes in USD is no more a hassle than the need for buying stamps if you want to use the U.S. postal service.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 504
So many people hee complaing about the problem of diluted values, no backing etc. This is not a problem unless you have a lot of cash. Then go change it into stcks or bitcoins or whatever. And use cash only for exchange of goods. Problem solved.
legendary
Activity: 1232
Merit: 1011

Sure they do! Holding a Dollar note does NOT give me a claim to any of that however Sad


you can say that for bitcoin too.
hero member
Activity: 709
Merit: 503
Sure they do! Holding a Dollar note does NOT give me a claim to any of that however Sad

Ah, got it.
legendary
Activity: 2324
Merit: 1125
The US federal government does have considerable chickens, er, assets and ability to collect more.  It is misrepresentative to imply less.


Sure they do! Holding a Dollar note does NOT give me a claim to any of that however Sad
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1004
Printing money is theft and therefore fiat money is inherently immoral.
This cannot be repeated enough. It's the biggest scam on Earth and it's hidden in plain sight!
Repetition does not make a false statement true.
Following your logic, if I buy a TV set and the producer makes just one more unit, you consider that act "theft".



The underlying issue (which molecular and wachtwoord probably should've noted explicitly, since you apparently missed it) is that citizens are forced, through threat of prison (ie, violence), to use currency that gets debased. If that were not the case, there wouldn't be anything immoral about it, and it would be analogous to a company, whose stock you own, issuing more shares.

But we're forced to use these currencies through the requirement that we pay taxes in them (and other legal tender laws), so when we get diluted, we lose value/property. This is immoral because we're forced to use such currencies without explicit consent or choice, and the entities forcing us to do so intend to deprive us of the value of that asset through dilution. That they may think they're doing a net-good via said dilution is irrelevant; if someone takes your TV at gunpoint because it's "better for you" to not have a TV, that's still theft.

I'll re-iterate your definition of theft so you can cross-check it against the above:

In common usage, theft is the taking of another person's property without that person's permission or consent with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it.
AU
member
Activity: 98
Merit: 10
My last bitcoin finally sold! It's a relief. Bitcoin is doomed to fail. It has a price, but it has no value. It has made a few people rich, but most people shall loose. A currency? It is only speculation and nothing more. Bitcoin has not and will not become a real medium for exchange. What remains for bitcoin now is the large holders to sell out their coins, but in a tempo that does not crash the 'market'. It will be interesting to see how bitcoin's decline plays out. Good luck, either buying or selling, but if you do the former, you need it most.

someone lost out big time on the swings lol
sr. member
Activity: 431
Merit: 261
What is the goal of starting this thread?
hero member
Activity: 709
Merit: 503
The US federal government does have considerable chickens, er, assets and ability to collect more.  It is misrepresentative to imply less.

As we begin to play less poker with their notes, where do we find better ones?

Physical gold is a royal pain to play with; weight, volume, poor divisibility, etc., and besides which gold should be used for what it is best at, jewelry, electronics, etc.
legendary
Activity: 2324
Merit: 1125
The comparison with the guy with the chickens is actually still to rosy. Change the situation a be that he doesn't actually own any chickens and it will resemble the real situation more closely.
hero member
Activity: 709
Merit: 503
Following your logic, if I buy a TV set and the producer makes just one more unit, you consider that act "theft".

In common usage, theft is the taking of another person's property without that person's permission or consent with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it.

As you obviously know, the difference between a TV set and money is the TV itself *is* the property and money is just a note.  Steal either from me and I consider it wrong.  Producing additional TVs creates no burden on me per se.  Producing additional notes dilutes the value of mine.  This is trivial to understand and it is disingenuous to deny it.

If you play poker with someone and they put a note into the pot indicating they owe the bearer some amount, e.g. 1 of 10 chickens he owns.  If you win the pot then you expect to be able to collect sometime soon.  If enough of these notes end up in circulation then eventually it will exceed the 10 chickens; not everyone can collect and at best someone will get less than one whole live chicken.  Every new note the jerk writes dilutes your original note.  Now you'll make some noise about how the guy could just go get some more chickens to payoff the notes.  Is it stealing?  One wonders how it will go when he stands for final judgment.  Long before that folks will wise up and stop playing poker with him.
legendary
Activity: 2324
Merit: 1125
Printing money is theft and therefore fiat money is inherently immoral.
This cannot be repeated enough. It's the biggest scam on Earth and it's hidden in plain sight!
Repetition does not make a false statement true.
Following your logic, if I buy a TV set and the producer makes just one more unit, you consider that act "theft".

In common usage, theft is the taking of another person's property without that person's permission or consent with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it.

For something which represents no value or utility whatsoever besides its scarcity (e.g. fiat money and Bitcoin) making more of it IS theft as it effectively reduces the only benefit it has. This is not true for a tv set which does have utility.

Fiat currency, unbacked by some commodity with utility/value, is the most silly thing ever. A $10 note means the government (Yes the FED is part of your government, whether they agree or not) owes you $10, but the government gets to decide what the actual value of that $10 is because they are the only ones with the power to do so. So they leverage this power by going into debt and devalue the unit ($) to reduce this debt. This is a process they can continue indefinitely and it's one of the biggest taxes around.

Yes, that is theft.
qwk
donator
Activity: 3542
Merit: 3413
Shitcoin Minimalist
Printing money is theft and therefore fiat money is inherently immoral.
This cannot be repeated enough. It's the biggest scam on Earth and it's hidden in plain sight!
Repetition does not make a false statement true.
Following your logic, if I buy a TV set and the producer makes just one more unit, you consider that act "theft".

In common usage, theft is the taking of another person's property without that person's permission or consent with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it.
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1131
Printing money is theft and therefore fiat money is inherently immoral.

Printing money is theft and therefore fiat money is inherently immoral.

Printing money is theft and therefore fiat money is inherently immoral.

This cannot be repeated enough. It's the biggest scam on Earth and it's hidden in plain sight!

True

True

True
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
From time to time when some one saying bye bye, it is due for a rally Cheesy

If I have one piece of gold, I can print a note that is backed by this piece of gold, this is not theft. But as long as the note is circulating, I must keep the gold, because it can come back to me anytime to redeem the gold. (And I have to destroy the note after I give out the gold, since now they don't have any value backing them anymore)

If I am going to make a product in future, I can print a note that is backed by this product, this is not theft either. But after the note started to circulate, I must make this product ready in time. Sooner or later the note will come back to me to redeem the product

However, the central bank today issue money without gold or a product in future as backing, they just print lots of notes and use those notes to purchase government bonds and assets, that is pure robbery and extremely immoral
legendary
Activity: 2324
Merit: 1125
Printing money is theft and therefore fiat money is inherently immoral.

Printing money is theft and therefore fiat money is inherently immoral.

Printing money is theft and therefore fiat money is inherently immoral.

This cannot be repeated enough. It's the biggest scam on Earth and it's hidden in plain sight!
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