every miner is selfish
1) those that get bitcoins selfishly keep them
2) those who want bitcoins selfishy argue because they should have them
3) if those that had them gave them to those that want them.. then its all the same.. (1) and (2) still apply
its a never ending circle of selfishness
Topic: Real honest Money - page 3. (Read 6849 times)
It's only achievable by a large pool, and there's no incentive to do so unless one wants to double spend.
Correct, by a large pool. There is a good incentive to orphan competitors' blocks and gain more rewards for yourself. That's what is called selfish mining. I've seen this happen a few times and other people have seen it, and there are articles available on the issue, please google it.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
Selfish mining has been going on for a long time, but it's sort of stealth, you have to watch blockchain to notice it.
It's only achievable by a large pool, and there's no incentive to do so unless one wants to double spend.
Selfish mining has been going on for a long time, but it's sort of stealth, you have to watch blockchain to notice it.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
just because an attack hasn't happened isn't any kind of proof. anyway, good luck with nxt,
let me know when you can buy stuff with it.
let me know when you can buy stuff with it.
Well, double-spending attacks and selfish mining in Bitcoin have happened multiple times, and they don't seem to be any kind of proof to you either
I am sure you yourself will have a hard time thinking of what kind of proof you would be satisfied with.I can't buy anything much with Bitcoin either except hosting and domains which I can buy with paypal faster and cheaper because there are more companies that accept paypal. Overstock and other two companies what are those - tigerdirect and newegg, don't ship international, so this is no argument.
I think you are talking FUD or you don't know what you are talking about.
When did Selfish mining attack happen? Do you have a reference to that?
As far as merchant adoption, go here: http://coinmap.org/
The best coin that suits the definition of 'honest money' as implied by the original post is Myriadcoin. It can be mined just like any PoW coin, and it's not hijacked by ASICs and not vulnerable to 51% attacks.
But nobody give a damn about Myriadcoin, because nobody give a damn about honest money. The only 'honest' money people like to call that is the kind they have a big stash of. That's so hypocritical and at the same time something that can be understood because it's natural instincts to protect your vested interests.
So who are you trying to fool, OP?
But nobody give a damn about Myriadcoin, because nobody give a damn about honest money. The only 'honest' money people like to call that is the kind they have a big stash of. That's so hypocritical and at the same time something that can be understood because it's natural instincts to protect your vested interests.
So who are you trying to fool, OP?
just because an attack hasn't happened isn't any kind of proof. anyway, good luck with nxt,
let me know when you can buy stuff with it.
let me know when you can buy stuff with it.
Well, double-spending attacks and selfish mining in Bitcoin have happened multiple times, and they don't seem to be any kind of proof to you either
I am sure you yourself will have a hard time thinking of what kind of proof you would be satisfied with.I can't buy anything much with Bitcoin either except hosting and domains which I can buy with paypal faster and cheaper because there are more companies that accept paypal. Overstock and other two companies what are those - tigerdirect and newegg, don't ship international, so this is no argument.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
Quote
So basically you use transactions-as-proof-of-stake. That sounds reasonable; it's as good as I can think of at this point, although it has the moderately-serious-but-not-fatal flaws that I described in my On Stake article. I eagerly await a full whitepaper description and open source code of your complete protocol so both myself and more formal academics can properly whack at the specifics.
This is what he said, but of course you only included the part that you liked
The whitepaper draft is available here:
https://nxtforum.org/nxt-whitepaper/completely-revamped-nxt-whitepaper-draft/
But since NXT is still under active development and will be for a while, the whitepaper will stay in draft mode for a while too. The source code itself is a whitepaper. No successful attack for 8 months is proof enough that no such thing as N@S exists, at least in the case of NXT. Other PoS coins may differ.
just because an attack hasn't happened isn't any kind of proof. anyway, good luck with nxt,
let me know when you can buy stuff with it.
Quote
So basically you use transactions-as-proof-of-stake. That sounds reasonable; it's as good as I can think of at this point, although it has the moderately-serious-but-not-fatal flaws that I described in my On Stake article. I eagerly await a full whitepaper description and open source code of your complete protocol so both myself and more formal academics can properly whack at the specifics.
This is what he said, but of course you only included the part that you liked
The whitepaper draft is available here:
https://nxtforum.org/nxt-whitepaper/completely-revamped-nxt-whitepaper-draft/
But since NXT is still under active development and will be for a while, the whitepaper will stay in draft mode for a while too. The source code itself is a whitepaper. No successful attack for 8 months is proof enough that no such thing as N@S exists, at least in the case of NXT. Other PoS coins may differ.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
Proof of Stake also is subject to a "nothing-at-stake" attack, as has been explained by
some technical experts. And in practice, POS coins have been operating with checkpoints
and hardforks.
some technical experts. And in practice, POS coins have been operating with checkpoints
and hardforks.
You're just parrotting others. Vitalik Buterin explains here what he means by 'nothing-at-stake' and gets answers why NXT is not subject to this, the answers that he's apparently satisfied with:
https://nxtforum.org/index.php?topic=3343.msg60114#msg60114
Other PoS coins may differ.
I understand the NaS problem, it is not that complicated to understand.
As far as Vitalik Buterin being satisfied with NXT security, what
he actually said in the post you referenced was this:
Quote
I eagerly await a full whitepaper description and open source code of your complete protocol so both myself and more formal academics can properly whack at the specifics.
Proof of Stake also is subject to a "nothing-at-stake" attack, as has been explained by
some technical experts. And in practice, POS coins have been operating with checkpoints
and hardforks.
some technical experts. And in practice, POS coins have been operating with checkpoints
and hardforks.
You're just parrotting others. Vitalik Buterin explains here what he means by 'nothing-at-stake' and gets answers why NXT is not subject to this, the answers that he's apparently satisfied with:
https://nxtforum.org/index.php?topic=3343.msg60114#msg60114
Other PoS coins may differ.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
Feeling scared PoS can dethrone PoW? Be very scared
As far as I am concerned they have already reached that point, quite a while ago...Investing huge amounts of cash and wasting precious power, with small profit margins can not last very long against POS.
research POS
imagine a coindev premines.
on launch he owns 1mill coins.. the first block mined at launch gives out 1000 coins.. guess who gets the majority stake of that post launch block...... the coin dev.
now fast forward a bit. the coins are on exchanges. the exchange is hoarding 5mill coins out of 6mill circulation, because everyone deposited them into exchanges..
guess who holds the stake and is getting most of the rewards... the exchanges..
so lets pretend bitcoin was POS.
right now satoshi meant to have 1mill coins, karpeles has 600k hidden, winklevoss have 200k, the gox trustee has 200k, coinbase and bitstamp estimated 600k each (2.6mill) so these guys are taking a nice 20% cut out of every block reward just by hoarding coins..
not to mention the other large investors not listed.. meaning that true miners are getting less..
POS is the invention of coindevs and exchanges to get more coin without doing any work.. its like employment. minimum wage employees do the hard work so their manager can sit on his fat ass getting paid a 6 figure salary..
by the time normal average joe have adequate supply of POS coin, by buying them on exchanges.. the coin devs ar happy, they have just grabbed valuable bitcoins from you. and left you holding a bag of rotton apples that are now worthless (price dump time)...
... how do you like them apples!! ...
Proof of Stake also is subject to a "nothing-at-stake" attack, as has been explained by
some technical experts. And in practice, POS coins have been operating with checkpoints
and hardforks.
Although, perhaps in the future Bitcoin may be able to add a POS element to its POW
to bolster security.
Feeling scared PoS can dethrone PoW? Be very scared
As far as I am concerned they have already reached that point, quite a while ago...Investing huge amounts of cash and wasting precious power, with small profit margins can not last very long against POS.
research POS
imagine a coindev premines.
on launch he owns 1mill coins.. the first block mined at launch gives out 1000 coins.. guess who gets the majority stake of that post launch block...... the coin dev.
now fast forward a bit. the coins are on exchanges. the exchange is hoarding 5mill coins out of 6mill circulation, because everyone deposited them into exchanges..
guess who holds the stake and is getting most of the rewards... the exchanges..
so lets pretend bitcoin was POS.
right now satoshi meant to have 1mill coins, karpeles has 600k hidden, winklevoss have 200k, the gox trustee has 200k, coinbase and bitstamp estimated 600k each (2.6mill) so these guys are taking a nice 20% cut out of every block reward just by hoarding coins..
not to mention the other large investors not listed.. meaning that true miners are getting less..
POS is the invention of coindevs and exchanges to get more coin without doing any work.. its like employment. minimum wage employees do the hard work so their manager can sit on his fat ass getting paid a 6 figure salary..
by the time normal average joe have adequate supply of POS coin, by buying them on exchanges.. the coin devs ar happy, they have just grabbed valuable bitcoins from you. and left you holding a bag of rotton apples that are now worthless (price dump time)...
... how do you like them apples!! ...
Hasn't this been the case with almost any alt coins, regardless of POS or POW ?
Seems to me that indeed as you also said the devs and some "lucky" early adopters are the real winners.
Thats why I treat alt coins as pyramid games or scams if you like.
The great plus for POS is that you don't have to invest or do much work like POW to make a nice profit.
Effectivly because of this an even better profit margin !
Average Joe as such, will get stuck with some rotten apples indeed, POS or POW.
Bottom line how to create an fair and even distribution ?
So even average Joe who has no clue about POW or POS doesn't get screwed with these apples.
Anyway I think most ppl who visits BTT already got the idea...
Pyramid game, pump and dump, get in fast and get out even faster before it collapses.
Average Joe in the meantime better stick to BTC, that is if they already heard about it.
Feeling scared PoS can dethrone PoW? Be very scared
As far as I am concerned they have already reached that point, quite a while ago...Investing huge amounts of cash and wasting precious power, with small profit margins can not last very long against POS.
research POS
imagine a coindev premines.
on launch he owns 1mill coins.. the first block mined at launch gives out 1000 coins.. guess who gets the majority stake of that post launch block...... the coin dev.
now fast forward a bit. the coins are on exchanges. the exchange is hoarding 5mill coins out of 6mill circulation, because everyone deposited them into exchanges..
guess who holds the stake and is getting most of the rewards... the exchanges..
so lets pretend bitcoin was POS.
right now satoshi meant to have 1mill coins, karpeles has 600k hidden, winklevoss have 200k, the gox trustee has 200k, coinbase and bitstamp estimated 600k each (2.6mill) so these guys are taking a nice 20% cut out of every block reward just by hoarding coins..
not to mention the other large investors not listed.. meaning that true miners are getting less..
POS is the invention of coindevs and exchanges to get more coin without doing any work.. its like employment. minimum wage employees do the hard work so their manager can sit on his fat ass getting paid a 6 figure salary..
by the time normal average joe have adequate supply of POS coin, by buying them on exchanges.. the coin devs ar happy, they have just grabbed valuable bitcoins from you. and left you holding a bag of rotton apples that are now worthless (price dump time)...
... how do you like them apples!! ...
Feeling scared PoS can dethrone PoW? Be very scared
As far as I am concerned they have already reached that point, quite a while ago...Investing huge amounts of cash and wasting precious power, with small profit margins can not last very long against POS.
Feeling scared PoS can dethrone PoW? Be very scared
I don't think that traders care at all how a coin gets created, POS or POW, the value of any commodity/product is simply determined by supply and demand.
When NXT (or any other alt coin...) manage to escape from the exchanges and start to have a life outside in the real word, you will surely see prices and volumes going up.
I guess we can call that a no brainer.
When NXT (or any other alt coin...) manage to escape from the exchanges and start to have a life outside in the real word, you will surely see prices and volumes going up.
I guess we can call that a no brainer.
The entire supply of bitcoin as of today is not from miners, part of the supply is from people who have previously purchased from miners (and purchased from people who have purchased from miners, and so on) and want to sell for other reasons.
If there are not buyers willing to pay $600 for a bitcoin then they will not offer as much, and since miners need to pay for their electricity in advance (they use it and at this point they owe the electric company) they cannot wait an infinite time for willing buyers to offer $600.
If there are not buyers willing to pay $600 for a bitcoin then they will not offer as much, and since miners need to pay for their electricity in advance (they use it and at this point they owe the electric company) they cannot wait an infinite time for willing buyers to offer $600.
in your opinion, but
1) those that hold the product have the control of price.. try asking for a $30 bottle of whiskey and say to the shop.. i only have $2 give it to me.. see their response
2) not every bitcoin is on an exchange. those buying bitcoin as you say originally by it from a miner, and then of course (because they are smart investors) wont want to sell at a loss. this is then pre bought investors. also wanting to only sell at a price above the miners costs.. meaning those that bough yesterday and miners today can both find their lowest ask prices above mining costs, so now 3600 coins of yesterdays mining that sold for X will want to sell for X+1 atleast. and miners will also want to sell above X aswell..
3)using point (1) i can put a buy order at $1, $10, $100 right now... yes i can ask for any small amount i want.. doesnt mean i wil get it..
4) those with the coin have the control and the are the ultimate decider.. not the buyer.. sellers have their own prices in mind, they know ow valuable bitcoin is, so they are not dumb to sell for less (unless intentionally trying to cause a crash) so they have their minimum sell prices in mind and prefer prices higher then that.
if you put all this data together and think logically that its a sellers market... not a buyers market.. you may understand.. and if it doesnt sell .. just like houses.. you hold onto it untill a better offer comes along.. no one is silly to sell a house for $10k just because someone says thats all thy have.. they wait it out until someone else comes along.
and that folks is why some buyers are always screaming "i missed the boat" because they are the ones not matching sellers prices.. and think that bitcoin will crash to $10
A bitcoin sells for $600 when someone is willing to trade $600 for 1 BTC and someone with 1 BTC is will to trade it for $600. It is a value agreement, not a direct correlation between how much it cost in energy to create it.
cha ching.. this guy is atleast trying to peel away the orange skin.. now ask why would someone be willing to sell at $600 and not $2..... oh yea, cos it cost him $500 to make the coin and he wants $100 profit to cover his lifestyle (2 days wage).
thus he is NOT willing to sell for less than $500 today.. but would prefer $100,000, but agree's on somewhere in the $500-$650 range as thats what buyers are offering, and it still means he is making profit.
buyers are not willing to pay $100,000... but would prefer to pay 1c, but agree's to pay somewhere around the $500-$650 range as thats what sellers are offering..
thus the speculation is $500 and above
the bitcoin price is not some random number based on a dream or hope. there is actual financial decisions being made
and most miners are on the similar (i never said exact) cost/profiting mindset. so yea you will see some variance and volatility. but you will see alot of reluctance for anyone to sell for less then $500 right now.. so thats where speculation comes in. somewhere between $500 cost average for miners.. and the moon. most buyers are accepting $600-$650 at the moment.. but not yet willing to pay up to the moon for a bitcoin..
when you start to realise that those who hold bitcoin are not stupid enough to actually be willing to sell for $10, you'll realise that bitcoin wont fall to $10(on a permanent bases).. there would be too much resistance. the most you would expect from a intentional price dump from a large whale trying to sell at a loss INTENTIONALLY, is a small time period before it averages back to above $500..
for the thousands of miners that are not stupid, to sell for a loss, there maybe 1 idiot intentionally trying to crash the price.... but thats his loss.
it makes me laugh when people think that prices and value are just random numbers based off nothing
If there are not buyers willing to pay $600 for a bitcoin then they will not offer as much, and since miners need to pay for their electricity in advance (they use it and at this point they owe the electric company) they cannot wait an infinite time for willing buyers to offer $600.
Quote
in short bitcoin is backed by 80% POW(production cost) 20% speculation.
+1000I think production cost includes everything from the engineer designing the chip to producing the miner, electric, .......
Edit:
Bitcoin should not be called virtual currency as this reveres to crap in game currency's and such, PoW currency is better suited
Jump to: